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Discussion of Israel/Palestine

Just recently had to break it down in a group because it's been flaring up, figured a post would be nice.

This may seem like a Jewish specific topic, but it is important for non-Jews to know as well.

Zionism vs Anti-Zionism.

First of all, if you're a non-Jew it's best to identify with neither as for non-Jews is almost always antisemitic. (And yes I mean both).

This is a one of the biggest bones of contention in the Jewish community and is absolutely a loud argument right now due to current events. Worse yet, it's generally so because of a mix of misunderstandings and extremism.

Zionism
Originally this was the belief that the only way Jews could find some stability and safety would be to form a Jewish state. Once the state was formed, this turned into rabid support for Israel. For the milder of them, it basically boils down to patriotism... for the extremes it's nationalism

The loudest and most well represented of Zionists, however, believe basically that any criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic, even by fellow Jews.
(How can this be antisemitic for non-jews? Short answer without derailing: Nazis are often Zionist)

Anti-Zionism
Originally this was opposition to the creation of modern Israel, though each person had their own wildly varying reasons.

After the creation, many Anti-Zionists became Zionists. For the rest it mostly transformed into minimizing and addressing the damages caused by the creation of the state (ie. the occupation of Palestine). Many do dream of the potential of dismantling the state, but don't see it as feasible because creating a new humanitarian crisis to solve another isn't an acceptable solution.

They're generally painted by Zionists as if they want to abruptly end the state without addressing the crisis it would cause. (As such even mild Zionists often believe Anti-Zionism to be inherently antisemitic)

(Non-Jews can criticize Israel, but being/identifying-as Anti-Zionist is pretty much reserved for Jews; the exception being victims of Israel)

#IsraelHamasWar #Israel #Zionism #AntiZionism #AntiZionismIsNotAntisemitism #Hamas #Judaism

in reply to Shiri Bailem

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@cstross Iโ€™m even more confused than before I read that ๐Ÿ˜ฎ
in reply to Gary Parker

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@witewulf Okay, TLDR: anti-zionism has been co-opted by fucking Nazis. But among Jews it's specifically about opposition to an imperialist, colonialist ideology that is popular among right-wing Jews (notably the current government of Israel).
in reply to Charlie Stross

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@Charlie Stross @Gary Thank you, definitely showing why you're the writer and I'm the shitposter lol
in reply to Shiri Bailem

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@witewulf You pretty much nailed it, though! All I'd add is that zionism started out in the late 19th century as yet another component of the general European wave of ethno-nationalism that birthed Italy and Germany as well as the Balkan states, and broke up the Austro-Hungarian Empire: everyone else got a homeland, so why not the Jews? But then WW1 and the Balfour Declaration happened, and it turned from aspirational into a tool of oil imperialism.
in reply to Charlie Stross

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@witewulf (I am entitled to an Israeli passport under the Law of Return ... but I don't want one.)
in reply to Charlie Stross

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@cstross I heard someone (who I donโ€™t normally consider to be raving lunatic) recently express the opinion that the only way to solve the Zionism problem was to expel all the white, European Jews from Israel and only allow the โ€œrealโ€ pure Jews with brown skin to live there. I got out of that conversation pretty quickly ๐Ÿ˜ณ
in reply to Gary Parker

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@witewulf That's exactly as insane as suggesting a solution to the "Irish problem" by expelling all the "Brit" settlers and keeping the island for the pure Irish.
in reply to Charlie Stross

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@cstross I think their angle was that the right-wing politics of modern-day Israel is mostly coming from people who have โ€œreturnedโ€ to Israel post โ€˜48, rather than those who have lived there for millennia. I thought it unhelpful, inflammatory, ill-informed and racist, though.
in reply to Gary Parker

@witewulf @cstross Ethnic cleansing ses like a very poor solution for the problem of ethnic cleansing.
in reply to Charlie Stross

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@Charlie Stross @Gary Oh, I mentioned that in my answer below about how Nazis are often Zionist, it's called "Blood and Soil" (also included a fun american fact on it too)
in reply to Shiri Bailem

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@cstross thanks (both of you), that makes a bit more sense. Iโ€™m still wholly unqualified to share my own opinion on the matter, although the emotions the current situation stirs makes that harder every day.
in reply to Gary Parker

Discussion of Israel/Palestine

@Gary @Charlie Stross I always appreciate an excuse to elaborate on my views!

It's impossible to be remotely readable without leaving 90% of something out (why do you think scientific papers are such a slog?)

in reply to Charlie Stross

@cstross @witewulf Hard not to note that German, Italian, and various Balkan nationalisms were also terrible fucking ideas that killed tremendous amounts of people. Kind of feels like nationalism as an ideology was a terrible, murderous mistake in general.
in reply to EmbraceBecoming

it's often a mistake, but there are notable exceptions: ridiculous to see Ireland being better off as part of the UK at this point, Czechia and Slovakia splitting worked out fine, and so on. The problem is demagogues frequently use it to encourage their followers to beat up the neighbours (to divert attention from their own failures).
This entry was edited (11 months ago)
in reply to Charlie Stross

Discussion of Israel/Palestine

@cstross but didnโ€™t that also say that being Zionist as a non-Jew was antisemitic, and a nazi thing?

(And because The Internet: I have to point out that I am NOT trolling, there is no snark here and Iโ€™m asking genuine questions, not being reply guy)

in reply to Gary Parker

Discussion of Israel/Palestine

@Gary @Charlie Stross (it's rarely used, but I think /srs is the punctuation to indicate seriousness, much like /s is sarcasm)

As far as answering that, it's a bit meatier which is why I chose not to include it in the original to avoid completely derailing.

Some of the common antisemitic reasonings behind goy "zionism":

  • Naziism - At the least in classic Nazi ideology, but still often present in modern Naziism and white supremacy in general, there's the idea of "Blood and Soil".

It's the belief that each "race" has rights to a certain land. The Nazis of Germany believed it was Aryans to Europe. As such those following "Blood and Soil" believe that the Jewish people have ultimate right to the land of Israel (as in they would fully endorse us launching a full fledged holocaust against non-Jews there). (I'll note that as always Nazis and white supremacists are always hypocrites. Side note this is the reason why many americans claim a distant "cherokee princess" relative, because it was a way for Blood and Soil Nazis to justify their supremacy in America)

  • Christian Antisemitism - Many Christians support Israel existing purely because they believe it coincides with prophecies with the end times. Short gist is that it amounts to the Jews in Israel will basically be forced to convert or die when Jesus returns. There's no basis in respect for Jews, just viewing us as essentially tools for their beliefs.

reshared this

in reply to Charlie Stross

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@cstross @witewulf Is there then an acceptable phrase for us non Jews to use to signify our opposition to an imperialist, colonialist ideology that is popular among right-wing Jews (notably the current government of Israel)? OP seems to rule out 'anti-Zionist.'
in reply to jimkennedy

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@jimkennedy @cstross I was wondering the same thing. The safe answer is โ€œno, stay in your laneโ€, but when we avoid talking about something because it may offend one or more parties itโ€™s tantamount to brushing it under the carpet and pretending itโ€™s not happening.
in reply to Gary Parker

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@Gary @Charlie Stross @jimkennedy To be clear, I fully endorse calling Israel on it's bullshit. It's mostly just don't use the "Anti-Zionist" identity while doing so.
Absolutely 110% encourage saying "Those Are Fucking War Crimes?! Why Are We Sitting By And Allowing This To Happen!?!"
in reply to Gary Parker

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@witewulf @cstross This is my worry - the 'it's complicated so just drop the conversation' tone policing I've seen elsewhere, which is designed to make everyone look away during a genocide. (Absolutely not the case with the OP, as I see from scrolling her timeline)
in reply to Shiri Bailem

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@jimkennedy Also just in case you don't see the other comment: realized Anti-Imperialist or Anti-Colonialism are fantastic alternatives
in reply to Shiri Bailem

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
Anti-imperialist has the advantage of also covering the previously mentioned anti-Russia-bullshit.
in reply to Shiri Bailem

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@witewulf @cstross Opinionated is good (in my strongly held opinion) as long as you're prepared to back up your opinions! Shitty things are allowed to happen in the world in part because so many refuse to have any opinion at all.
in reply to jimkennedy

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@jimkennedy @Gary @Charlie Stross prepared to back up, or back down! (lol, because admitting you're wrong is equally important)
in reply to Shiri Bailem

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@jimkennedy @cstross admitting/accepting youโ€™re wrong, with no caveats, is the badge of the Internet Grownup ๐Ÿค”
in reply to jimkennedy

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@jimkennedy @Gary @Charlie Stross not really since it's Israel specific... for comparison, is there a similar term for Anti-Russia's-Bullshit?
in reply to Shiri Bailem

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@witewulf @cstross @jimkennedy Almost too broad. I used to, before October 7, call myself anti-zionist, but itโ€™s so fraught now, I prefer non-zionist. But anti-imperialist. Yeah.
in reply to wendinoakland has movedโ€ฆ

Discussion of Israel/Palestine

@wboucek @Gary @Charlie Stross @jimkennedy the problem fundamentally is the specificity.

If you're specific to Israel it's impossible to divorce yourself from the antisemites without being a Jew. So the only real alternative is to call out the behavior.

It also addresses hypocrisy because many will call out Israel on it's bullshit, but completely ignore it when other countries do it.

in reply to Gary Parker

Discussion of Israel/Palestine

@Gary @Charlie Stross I'm happy to answer questions. This is mostly adjacent to the current conflict, but more about how it overflows into conversations around Judaism in general.

There's a general assumption that Zionism = Pro-Judaism and Anti-Zionism being just a synonym for Anti-Semitism, and this assumption exists even in Jewish spaces so it's especially heated right now.

in reply to Shiri Bailem

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
1/2 @shiri Yeah this is really fโ€™d up. ANY state based on religious and cultural identity is fundamentally exclusionary. The idea that THIS place is for US means the OTHER can not have equal civil rights. This is literally the argument used by David Duke that the KKK was not racist because their views where that races should not mix. There should be a separate sovereign place exclusively for white christians. And yes, thats fโ€™d up
in reply to CaptMorgan

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@CaptMorgan I forget the origin of the quote, but "Religion and Government are at their best when completely separate"

CaptMorgan reshared this.

in reply to CaptMorgan

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
2/2 @shiri so the only difference between Zionism and David Duke is which exclusionary cultural and religious group we are talking about, jewish people or white christians. The idea that this is the only way jewish people can have peace and security assumes every other state likewise only guarantees civil rights for specific cultural groups . The right solution is every state should guarantee equal civil rights for all citizens, which is in the US constitution
in reply to Shiri Bailem

As a Jew, I usually just say that I'm not a Zionist, because a focus on what Israel does is not central to my identity. I think it's fine for non-Jewish anarchists to say that they are anti-Zionist, though, because they are consistently against all states and all state ideologies.

People aren't going to get "Nazis are often Zionist" without more explanation. Better you than I.

in reply to Rich Puchalsky :anarchism:

@Rich Puchalsky :anarchism: answered it over in this comment: foggyminds.com/display/c6ef095โ€ฆ


@Gary @Charlie Stross (it's rarely used, but I think /srs is the punctuation to indicate seriousness, much like /s is sarcasm)

As far as answering that, it's a bit meatier which is why I chose not to include it in the original to avoid completely derailing.

Some of the common antisemitic reasonings behind goy "zionism":

  • Naziism - At the least in classic Nazi ideology, but still often present in modern Naziism and white supremacy in general, there's the idea of "Blood and Soil".

It's the belief that each "race" has rights to a certain land. The Nazis of Germany believed it was Aryans to Europe. As such those following "Blood and Soil" believe that the Jewish people have ultimate right to the land of Israel (as in they would fully endorse us launching a full fledged holocaust against non-Jews there). (I'll note that as always Nazis and white supremacists are always hypocrites. Side note this is the reason why many americans claim a distant "cherokee princess" relative, because it was a way for Blood and Soil Nazis to justify their supremacy in America)

  • Christian Antisemitism - Many Christians support Israel existing purely because they believe it coincides with prophecies with the end times. Short gist is that it amounts to the Jews in Israel will basically be forced to convert or die when Jesus returns. There's no basis in respect for Jews, just viewing us as essentially tools for their beliefs.


in reply to Shiri Bailem

I would argue that if you believe that Israel should become a "state for all of its citizens" instead of "the state of the Jewish people", and include both Arabs and Jews as equal citizens, then you are an anti-Zionist. You don't need to call for the ethnic cleansing of Jews in Israel/Palestine to be an anti-Zionist. You just have to reject territorial expansionism, settler colonialism, and "Blood and Soil".

I consider myself anti-Zionist and believe the idea of an ethnonationalist settler colony to be absolutely ridiculous to me, regardless of where it is. I am also Jewish so there's that.

This entry was edited (4 months ago)

Shiri Bailem reshared this.

in reply to Shiri Bailem

Discussion of Israel/Palestine
@Shiri Bailem
I'm definitely an anti-zionist. Jews and Arabs and everyone else who calls that area of the globe home should be equally free to live their lives without oppression etc. Civilians don't belong in military prisons even if they are Palestinian. Etc, etc.
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