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A rant on the BridgyFed drama

Since the BridgyFed drama, there might be four more reasons for Mastodon users to want Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) out of the Fediverse. I mean, aside from their usual atrocities like their users writing well over 500 characters, using text formatting, quoting and quote-posting like it's totally normal. Because it is for them. And aside from no instance on any of the three having rules and moderator numbers on par with Mastodon.

One, they aren't based on ActivityPub. They're technically bridged to Mastodon. They're bridged one instance at the time, and the bridge is a plug-in on the instance and therefore part of the project. But still, it isn't that much different from BridgyFed connecting Bluesky to the rest of the Fediverse.

Two, since they aren't based on ActivityPub, they're aliens. Aliens of basically the same kind as Bluesky, only that they've mostly got those features that Mastodon has that Bluesky doesn't. But the BridgyFed drama isn't about Bluesky's features or lack thereof, and it isn't only about Bluesky being commercial either. It's also about Bluesky being too different in technology, functionality and culture. But let me tell you a secret: Bluesky is probably much closer to Mastodon than Hubzilla. I mean, I've already mentioned how Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) users "misbehave" from a Mastodon point of view. You won't see any of this come from Bluesky anytime soon.

Three, Friendica is already fully federated with Bluesky. It's a feature that was introduced with the latest stable release.

Four, speaking of Friendica, that allegedly "hate-fuelling" Fediverse News is a public group account on Friendica. Only that the user who started that particular thread is on Firefish, and Fediverse News only automatically forwarded what he had posted.

So where's the outrage?

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #BridgyFed #Bluesky #Bridge #BlueskyBridge

Shiri Bailem reshared this.

in reply to Jupiter Rowland

@Jupiter Rowland Yes, and don't forget that Mastodon just recently migrated to ActivityPub itself - it started off with OStatus so it could federate with as many existing foreign servers as possible.
in reply to bkil

@bkil ...which, by the way, means that it was Mastodon that federated itself to at least four other projects just by being created.

Oh, and Hubzilla even had ActivityPub before Mastodon.

So much for everyone else being an intruder.

in reply to Jupiter Rowland

@Jupiter Rowland Hi Jupiter. I learn new stuff each time i read your posts, it seems, but here i'm quite struggling. I seem to be entirely ignorant of most of the things you've mentioned above.

  • "the BridgyFed drama" ... 🤷‍♀️
  • "Mastodon users to want Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) out of the Fediverse" ... they do? OMZ! Why? I mean, yes i read & understand all your points about our formatting & character limits, but i had no idea this was causing some adverse Masto user conflict 😮
  • "aren't based on ActivityPub" ... OMZ, i nearly fell over at this one. I thought everything in the fediverse was predicated on this, in that that was how the fediverse was even a thing. Geez i am so ignorant. 🤦‍♀️
  • "Friendica is already fully federated with Bluesky" ... oh, well, this one i do dislike. Now i need to research how i can block #Bluesky; i really want nothing to do with it, nor #Threads.
  • "allegedly "hate-fuelling" Fediverse News is a public group account on Friendica" ... sigh. I simply don't understand how i am so unaware. I am active each day in my account, yet somehow remain cluelessly obliviously ignorant of nuclear wars raging around me. Sigh.

@Steffen K9 🐰

in reply to Droppie [venera] 🐨♀🌈🐧​🦘

@MsDropbear42 [venera] 🐨♀🌈🐧​🦘 Someone is building a bridge between ActivityPub and AT Protocol.

This means that the AT Protocol Servers (currently Bluesky, Friendica) can talk to ActivityPub servers (Mastodon, Friendica, Hubzilla, PeerTube, Pixelfed, etc., etc.).

Some people are so angry that they are flipping out and dropping F bombs.

And there are many protocols in the fediverse. ActivityPub is the most popular, but there are also Zot, Nomad, OpenWebAuth, Diaspora, and more. There is even a protocol called Scuttlebutt.

For example, Hubzilla uses the Zot protocol to talk to other Hubzilla servers, and Streams uses the Nomad protocol to talk to other Streams servers. Streams uses Zot to talk to Hubzilla. And both can use ActivityPub as well.

And far as Friendica federating with Bluesky, the administrator of the server would have to activate that. So not all Friendica servers would support AT protocol since it is an optional addon the admin would have to install.

The reality is that we have over 46,000 independently operated servers on the fediverse, and that is growing every day. Bluesky would simply be server number 46,001.

in reply to Droppie [venera] 🐨♀🌈🐧​🦘

@MsDropbear42 [venera] 🐨♀🌈🐧​🦘 @Steffen K9 🐰 @Jupiter Rowland

  • "the BridgyFed drama" is regarding this post about someone building a Bluesky / ActivityPub bridge for when Bluesky starts federating (they built their own protocol 🤮).
  • "Mastodon users to want Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) out of the Fediverse" I haven't seen this myself, but it wouldn't surprise me because a lot of users of Mastodon and platforms that modeled themselves off of Mastodon have this sense of entitlement and see other platforms as intruders in the space (even if that other platform was here first), it's a lesser part of why they get so upset over things like bridges to other networks or new platforms like threads joining.
  • "aren't based on ActivityPub" ActivityPub is pretty new in the space, the oldest in the space is Diaspora. Friendica is native ActivityPub and has a checkbox for native support of Diaspora and OStatus in the admin settings, both of which are older than AP
  • "Friendica is already fully federated with Bluesky" Not quite true, especially as Bluesky does not yet federate. There's a plugin for Friendica which, at the moment, allows users on that server to use a puppet account on Bluesky (meaning you need a Bluesky account and the server is just copying to/from that puppet account). There are plans for that plugin to evolve into fully supporting federating with Bluesky when they do federate however. That will depend on whether your host has that plugin installed. If they do, then Bluesky servers (of which there will be multiple, not just the one that currently exists now) will appear just the same as AP servers in your feed, and likewise you can block them the same way.
  • "allegedly "hate-fuelling" Fediverse News is a public group account on Friendica" I haven't seen the claim myself, but the thread above was shared to the Fediverse News Friendica group. Since Groups are kind of a hack in AP (there's no actual group protocol feature), most Mastodon users are completely unfamiliar with them, so they think it's a regular user who's boosting/spamming all the conversation

Fediverse! I’ve been building a bridge to Bluesky, and they’re turning on federation soon, which means my bridge will be available soon too. You’ll be able to follow people on Bluesky from here in the fediverse, and vice versa.

Bluesky is a broad network with lots of worthwhile people and conversations! I hope you’ll give it a chance. Only fully public content is bridged, not followers-only or otherwise private posts or profiles. Still, if you want to opt out, I understand. Feel free to DM me at (different account than this one), email me, file a GitHub issue, or put #nobridge in your profile bio.

A number of us have thought about this for a while now, we’re committed to making it work well for everyone, and we’re very open to feedback. Thanks for listening. Feel free to share broadly.

in reply to Shiri Bailem

@Shiri Bailem A few corrections here:

"aren't based on ActivityPub" ActivityPub is pretty new in the space, the oldest in the space is Diaspora.

The oldest one is actually OStatus, the protocol behind social. It's from 2008. Diaspora* came out in September 2010.

Friendica is native ActivityPub and has a checkbox for native support of Diaspora and OStatus in the admin settings, both of which are older than AP

Friendica is native DFRN. It was launched in July 2010, so it's six years older than Mastodon and eight years older than the ActivityPub standard. Also, Friendica does things internally which AFAIK are still impossible with pure ActivityPub. Like on Hubzilla and (streams) to different degrees, ActivityPub is optional, but I think it's on by default for both nodes and accounts.

"Friendica is already fully federated with Bluesky" Not quite true, especially as Bluesky does not yet federate.

Not by Mastodon standards, but by Friendica standards.

In 2011, Friendica federated with Facebook. I'm not even kidding, it actually did. This federation required a Facebook account which was more or less remote-controlled from Friendica while also mirroring the Facebook friends list and the Facebook timeline into Friendica. But Friendica let this count as full federation. This ended when Facebook changed its TOS for external apps: They were no longer allowed to extract data.

Also, both Friendica and Hubzilla have a Twitter "bridge" to this day. It works the same as the Facebook connection, but it, too, counts as full federation by Friendica and Hubzilla's standards.

At least Friendica is also fully federated with Tumblr by its own standards. This wouldn't be possible without a Tumblr account either.

And the WordPress cross-poster available for both counts as federation, too.

"allegedly "hate-fuelling" Fediverse News is a public group account on Friendica" I haven't seen the claim myself, but the thread above was shared to the Fediverse News Friendica group. Since Groups are kind of a hack in AP (there's no actual group protocol feature), most Mastodon users are completely unfamiliar with them, so they think it's a regular user who's boosting/spamming all the conversation

...which led them into blocking the whole forum or even the entire Friendica node in their fuming rage.

CC: @MsDropbear42 [venera] 🐨♀🌈🐧​🦘 @Steffen K9 🐰

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Friendica #Hubzilla #BridgyFed #Bluesky #Bridge #BlueskyBridge

in reply to Jupiter Rowland


Not by Mastodon standards, but by Friendica standards.

It's good also to have and find a common sense interpretation between two different jargons. In the end, the conversation is fragmented.

You post the same thing on , say, twitter and activitypub and bluesky and your blog.

You got feedback from the two different protocols and for you it's maybe well aggregated under your post, but people watching on twitter won't see and benefit from the feedback you got from a bluesky user. Maybe you answer to a comment from B and C can see your reply but can't fetch the message you're answering.

It's not a constructive collective conversation, you are having 3/4 different conversations.

This entry was edited (5 months ago)
in reply to Luca Sironi

It's not "federation" by Friendica standards either. In Friendica jargon these are called "Cross Posting Connectors". They're not federation in any sense, they require separate native accounts on those platforms and just allow you to view and post to those accounts from your Friendica home timeline. They're a user convenience feature. They don't take content from those other networks and actually put them into the Fediverse or vice versa.
in reply to Droppie [venera] 🐨♀🌈🐧​🦘

@MsDropbear42 [venera] 🐨♀🌈🐧​🦘 there is no actual federation with Bluesky yet, it is only an addon for now, which mostly works like the Tumblr addon for example: you have to have an active account there and use it to log in to settings>social networks>bluesky import/export. Also, some servers do not have the addon at all. So there is basically no native federation with Bluesky at all for the moment.

@Steffen K9 🐰 @Jupiter Rowland

in reply to Jupiter Rowland

Satire meets partial factuality.
Unknown parent

Shiri Bailem
@MsDropbear42 [venera] 🐨♀🌈🐧​🦘 @Steffen K9 🐰 @Jupiter Rowland no worries, I hit post and then Scott's post showed up on my screen from like 10-15 minutes before lol
Unknown parent

Scott M. Stolz

@MsDropbear42 [venera] 🐨♀🌈🐧​🦘 Thanks for the complements. To answer your questions:

1. Most of the hate was directed at the developer who created the bridge and appeared as replies to his post announcing the bridge. Unless you were following him, or visited his channel on his website, you probably would have missed it anyway. The developer seemed to take it well and listened to people's feedback, but some people were inexcusably mean and hateful. Lots of F bombs directed at the developer. And there was a lot of ignorance about how the fediverse actually works (i.e. most didn't know that their posts are already federated beyond Mastodon).

2. When AT Protocol officially federates, Friendica admins will have the option of turn on AT protocol support natively, which means that Friendica would become a server on the AT protocol network, just like Bluesky. It will probably be one of the first implementations of AT protocol outside of Bluesky itself. Friendica also supports ActivityPub natively as well, so if an admin has both turned on, they are operating on both networks simultaneously. That's why they are listed on both sides.

3. Scuttlebutt is an interesting protocol. It is designed for social interactions using devices that are not always connected to the internet or not connected to the internet at all. Devices basically pass on messages to one another without the use of the internet. (At least that is my limited understanding of it.)

4. The nice thing about platforms like Friendica, Hubzilla, and Streams is that they are big on user choice and control. So even if your administrator activated it, you still have some control as a user as to whether you see posts from Bluesky.

in reply to Scott M. Stolz

@Scott M. Stolz

And there was a lot of ignorance about how the fediverse actually works (i.e. most didn't know that their posts are already federated beyond Mastodon).

...much less beyond ActivityPub.

Not to mention that a lot of Mastodon users don't understand how Mastodon works. They think it must have a pool of all accounts and all posts and all that somewhere, and the BridgyFed Bluesky bridge will give Bluesky unlimited access to it all.

They also think that Bluesky will be able to post nasty stuff to everyone, even those who aren't connected to anyone on Bluesky. They think the same about Threads, because in their heads, they're still on Twitter where the secret-sauce algorithm would probably allow for that to happen.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Threads #Meta #BridgyFed #Bluesky #Bridge #BlueskyBridge

Unknown parent

Scott M. Stolz

@small patatas Based on what I read, it sounded like there is no mirroring. It simply converts from one protocol to another and passes on the request.

If you are on ActivityPub and follow someone on Bluesky, your follow request gets sent to the bridge, which converts it to the other protocol, and sends the follow request to the Bluesky server. The Bluesky server then starts sending posts to the bridge addressed to you, and the bridge reformats it and it appears in your ActivityPub app.

So you are actually following the Bluesky channel, not an ActivityPub copy of a Bluesky channel.

There is no mirror. There are no duplicate accounts on each side. You speak English and the translator app spits out Spanish. That's all the bridge does. Translates from one protocol to another.

in reply to Jupiter Rowland

Content warning: Personal attacks for bridging Bluesky + shrugging off Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) = hypocrisy; CW: long (almost 2,000 characters), Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta, Bluesky bridge meta

in reply to Danie van der Merwe

@Danie van der Merwe Well, either Bluesky had the same mindset as Diaspora* back then. Be decentralised internally, but a walled garden towards the outside world. Diaspora* would still be isolated without Friendica's tedious work back in the day, and Bluesky wants to be the same. Yes, with not even only a public API, but laying the whole protocol open.

Either that, or Bluesky just wanted to draw some attention to itself in the wake of the Mastodon hype and therefore announced decentralisation, albeit with its own protocol. And with features on top which they imply having invented, but which have been around since 2011 (Zot protocol). "Bluesky is Twitter without Musk, it'll be decentralised like Mastodon, and it'll have better decentralisation than Mastodon!" Only that they've now discovered that actually going all the way in decentralisation as announced is a) difficult and b) not worth it anyway, considering Bluesky's success without decentralisation. Unless, of course, this has all been a ruse to begin with, and Bluesky has never intended to go full decentral.

Also, it's obvious that, like Threads, Bluesky doesn't know anything about the Fediverse beyond Mastodon. If they did, they would have also known: If they lay their protocol open, some third party will make use of it. And if Friendica can federate with something, it probably will, because that's part of what it stands for.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #Diaspora* #Bluesky

in reply to Jupiter Rowland

@jupiter_rowland ah yes I forgot Diaspora's stubbornness to stick only with their own protocol. Lucky my Friendica account connects as I have tons of followers from Diaspora.
in reply to Jupiter Rowland

Content warning: re: Personal attacks for bridging Bluesky + shrugging off Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) = hypocrisy; CW: long (almost 2,000 characters), Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta, Bluesky bridge meta

Unknown parent

Danie van der Merwe

Content warning: Personal attacks for bridging Bluesky + shrugging off Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) = hypocrisy; CW: long (almost 2,000 characters), Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta, Bluesky bridge meta

Unknown parent

Danie van der Merwe

Content warning: Personal attacks for bridging Bluesky + shrugging off Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) = hypocrisy; CW: long (almost 2,000 characters), Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta, Bluesky bridge meta

Unknown parent

Danie van der Merwe

Content warning: Personal attacks for bridging Bluesky + shrugging off Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) = hypocrisy; CW: long (almost 2,000 characters), Fediverse meta, non-Mastodon Fediverse meta, Bluesky bridge meta

in reply to Jupiter Rowland

Content warning: "How does Mastodon work?" + #Threads #Meta #Facebook #BridgyFed #Bluesky #Bridge #BlueskyBridge

in reply to Better Pe❤ple+Habits? (🔓+🔔)

@FreeSchool=Learn Respect Love A very good article about the situation was written by @Sean Tilley at @We Distribute and you can find it here:

Recently, Ryan Barrett re-announced his Bridgy Fed project to the Fediverse. As a service, it’s designed wih one specific goal in mind: to make parts of the decenralized social web that speak different protocols capable of talking to each other natively.

For the last few years, Ryan has been hard at work building a sytem that can natively speak IndieWeb, ActivityPub, atproto, and Nostr, and translate interactions back and forth in a manner as close to natural as possible.

Who is Ryan Barrett?

Ryan Barrett is a software engineer with a long track record. He co-founded Google App Engine, worked at an early cancer-detection company called Color, then as an engineer for a Climate Tech startup called NCX.
Ryan Barrett on Decentered
We actually interviewed Ryan recently for our Decentered podcast, and we think that it’s the best summary we can provide on what he’s working on, what his thoughts are, and the effort he takes to get the details right.

Overall, he has a deep understanding of the space, and wants to provide a tool for anyone to use. He’s also someone who has thought at length about community moderation, and wrote an excellent piece called Moderate People, Not Code.

What is Bridgy Fed?

Bridgy Fed is an effort to create a multi-protocol communication server that can translate people, content, and interactions back and forth between networks that speak different protocols.

For now, it only speaks IndieWeb and ActivityPub, but Ryan has put in a lot of effort into making it speak the AT Protocol (Bluesky) and Nostr as well. Those are due to come in the following weeks, and were a central focus in Ryan’s announcement.

How Did the Community Respond?

To be fair, a sizeable amount of people had good things to say about the new development, and many IndieWeb and Bluesky users were supportive and even excited.

Unfortunately, an extremely vocal part of Mastodon expressed a range of negative reactions, going from critiques to insults to vitriol, demanding everything from the developer deleting his project to Ryan leaving the network permanently.

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Looking through the comments, most negative feedback touches on the following:

  1. This tool violates user consent by being opt-out, rather than opt-in.
  2. I don’t want my profile and content showing up on Jack Dosey’s corporate social network.

So, let’s take a moment to unpack this, because it’s not as cut and dry as it appears.

User Consent and the Fediverse

The main controversy people seem to have in the Fediverse boils down to the fact that users have to Opt-Out of the service, rather than Opt-In. But, there’s a few fundamental misunderstandings here:

Federation itself is Opt-Out

A lot of people responded to Ryan with statements about how Bridgy Fed’s Opt-out nature violated their consent. In some cases, it got really nasty.

3027413I’m still reeling from this.

I’m still reeling from this.

I’m still reeling from this.

Here’s the thing: everyone wants to bang on this idea that the Fediverse is based on consent, that users are the ones at the forefront of who they get to connect to, that those decisions are inherently opt-in, and users get to decide everything.

3027415As evidenced by these geniuses.

But, that’s a myth: the very nature of how federation works in this space is “Open By Default”.

To prevent messages and interactions from flowing in and out of a place, users or admins have to activately block a server. What this fundamentally means is that the Fediverse is opt-out by design; connections flow until they don’t.

Evan Prodromou, of OStatus and ActivityPub fame, even weighed in on the topic:

The point of the fediverse is to connect with others, with full control and safety. It’s for making connections between networks of different sizes and implementations.

We have ample tools to control who can connect with us on the fediverse — the visibility of our posts, deciding who can and can’t follow us, personal blocks, domain blocks, and filters. Extra opt-out features like a profile hashtag, searchability flags, or indexibility flags give even more control.

With any other network on the fediverse, we allow connections to get started first, and then use these control mechanisms to shape our experience as individuals and as instance communities. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to do that with this bridge, too.

Evan Prodromou

That isn’t some random dude, that’s the guy who started the Fediverse, stating that the network being open by default is how things ought to be.

If any connections on the Fediverse were opt-in, people would have to opt in to federation on a case-by-case basis. This would seriously hamper the growth of Mastodon, and clashes with its own “open by default” philosophy. Bridgy’s own design values are more in line with what Mastodon does than against it.

Bridgy Fed isn’t a Crawler

A big part of the drama stems from the fact that people have assumptions about how Bridgy Fed works. Turns out, it’s not a bot that crawls the Fediverse and harvests user data! In fact, it doesn’t index anything, or offer search functionality of any kind. The dude isn’t building a data farm!

So then, what is Bridgy Fed doing, exactly?

An easy way to grasp this is to look at how interacting with remote stuff works in Mastodon. Let’s say you look up a remote user handle, or a URL to a post, using Mastodon’s search interface. Your server looks up that resource, fetches the data, and renders it locally for you to interact with.

Bridgy Fed and User Privacy

Bridgy Fed is basically doing exactly that, with just one extra step: it’s translating data on another network to something your own system can read, and it can work in two directions. That’s basically it.

There are also a couple of aspects of how Bridgy Fed works with user privacy settings and actions:

  • Bridgy accepts user blocks from ActivityPub, and also federates out edits and deletes. Actor blocks, reports, and domain blocks are recognized, and Bridgy respects Authorized Fetch.
  • Private statuses are not ingested by the bridge, because the other protocols don’t have an equivalent for private conversations.
  • If a user has #NoBridge on their profile or requests exclusion ahead of time, a cross-network lookup will fail for that user automatically, from every network, every time the lookup is attempted.

Bridgy and Multiprotocol Servers

Bridging across networks is something of a time-honored tradition in the decentralized social space. In more recent years, the Friendica family tree has acted as a glue between vast parts of the network, getting its hooks into OStatus, Diaspora, and ActivityPub in addition to their own native protocols.

While there has been hiccups, dissonance, and occasionally frustration, these kinds of efforts have helped expand the network while keeping it from being a total monoculture. Many projects within the early Fediverse were able to find inspiration from one another, despite taking different approaches to solving various problems.

The idea of a public post being translated into another protocol being considered a violation of consent is, frankly, unprecedented. But, this was never about converting a post schema from one JSON form to another, was it? In its basic form, who could possibly care about that?

No, this is about your post showing up on *that other network*.

Misunderstanding Bluesky

Maybe none of the above details matter to you. Maybe you’ve decided, screw this guy for connecting my posts to Jack Dorsey’s fake decentralized network!

If this is your position, I have a few notes for you!

  1. Jack Dorsey doesn’t own Bluesky! Aside from a position as a sitting board member in an advisory role, he’s actually not involved. In fact, he deleted his Bluesky account some months ago, and spends almost all of his time hyping Nostr and Bitcoin.
  2. Bluesky is a Public Benefit Corporation – while it’s true that they’re still a corporation, and still have some kind of profit motive, this immediately changes the dynamic from “a platform owned by some rich guy” to “a platform owned by a company”.
  3. Federation is coming soon – the Bluesky team has been actively testing federation and building for it. A lot of people claim that Bluesky doesn’t care about federation, and isn’t going to do it…but, it’s happening soon. If a network can federate, and other people can run their own nodes and services, the network itself isn’t Jack Dorsey’s, or even one entity’s.

We have an upcoming article that’s going to dig deeper into some of the myths about Bluesky. But the main point here is, Bluesky isn’t the Anti-Christ to the Fediverse that people claim that it is. It’s a different approach, by different people. That’s it.

In Conclusion

I chose to write this as an Opinion piece, because I don’t expect my point of view to be The Only View That Matters. I think Bridgy Fed is a cool project, and that Ryan doesn’t deserve the hate for building something he’s passionate about in his spare time.

I was struck by a really remarkable thread by Marco Rogers, who sorted through his feelings on the situation and identified the “ick” factor in this whole situation.

In short, who are you yelling at? Who do you expect to "fix" things for you? Right now people are coming down on the guy who is building the bridge to bluesky. That specific guy. They're yelling at him and telling him to make different decisions to protect their personal privacy. Is that what people think they signed up for with the fediverse? Fighting with other individual humans and trying to force them to do what you want?

— Marco Rogers (@polotek)2024-02-14T02:21:27.923Z

This is a decentralized network! Despite efforts to work together, optimize for user safety, and identify actively hostile communities, none of us are in charge. We can bring great initiatives, collaborations, tooling, you name it, but nobody is actually in charge here.

I want to be clear about my stance on user consent: I think it’s a good thing, and worth building for, even in a network where openness is the default. I think serious work needs to be done to better empower end users over privacy, access, and permissions. We can do better, in so many ways, and that future is coming.

But throwing a fit over your public data federating to some other network because someone on the other side decided to follow you from there? That’s some peak NIMBY Mastodon HOA bullshit. I would forgive them for unfollowing you.


in reply to Better Pe❤ple+Habits? (🔓+🔔)

@FreeSchool=Learn Respect Love

I think it's a good way to educate actually, and could you reply again what you would reply typically to your own post if someone asked "ok so how is it if not that?" since I / they would be ready to hear at that point

Let's see if I can make this halfway understandable. But it's going to be looooooooong.

First of all, Bluesky only knows what's being delivered to it. Not by BridgyFed. By Mastodon and the rest of the Fediverse through BridgyFed. BridgyFed does not scrape any information itself. Neither does Bluesky, also because it can't do that through Bluesky.

No, really. No, no, really. Calm down.

No, Bluesky won't have your profile and your posts right off the bat. In fact, Bluesky won't have any of the posts you've posted until now unless someone with at least one Bluesky follower boosts one of your old posts. And even only then, Bluesky will only have that one single post.

So what does Bluesky get from you then?

Well, normally, nothing. No, really.

At first, Bluesky won't even know you exist, much less where. Again, BridgyFed is not a scraper, and Bluesky doesn't have a Fediverse scraper either. And even if it had one, it wouldn't work through BridgyFed because BridgyFed doesn't support that.

And seriously: If Bluesky really wanted to scrape the Fediverse, it wouldn't do that through that tiny third-party keyhole that's BridgyFed! It'd set up search crawlers like Google that crawl Fediverse instances and send everything they find to Bluesky.

But Bluesky doesn't do that. I can reassure you that Bluesky doesn't do that.

Because Bluesky isn't interested in the Fediverse.

No, really, it isn't. If it were, it would have used ActivityPub right away instead of developing a wholly new and incompatible protocol. Or it could at least have included its own ActivityPub "translators" just like Hubzilla and (streams) have them and like Friendica used to have until it switched to ActivityPub.

But does Bluesky support ActivityPub in any way? No, it doesn't. Even though ActivityPub would have made a whole lot of things a whole lot easier for Bluesky itself already, it doesn't. Go figure.

Which goes to show that Bluesky isn't interested in the Fediverse. Bluesky doesn't want your data. And, again, if it did, it wouldn't rely on a third-party bridge to get them.

Okay, so again, what does Bluesky get from you?

Again, nothing. At least at first.

Now, let's suppose someone with at least one Bluesky follower mentions you in a public post. That public post also goes to that Bluesky follower, thus to Bluesky, with a link to your profile in it.

Then Bluesky has your name, and it has the URL of your profile. No different from how Mastodon works.

But it doesn't go through that link and scrape all your profile information. It isn't interested in that.

And besides, Mastodon profiles or any other Fediverse profiles are probably completely and utterly incompatible with Bluesky's profile structure anyway. So all that stuff would have to be "translated to Blueskyish". Extra effort for something that Bluesky isn't even interested in. Again, if it were, don't you think it'd use ActivityPub instead of their own AT protocol? Yeah, but it doesn't.

So from when on will Bluesky know your profile?

Normally, not at all.

Only when someone from Bluesky wants to follow you. And you've either got your profile set up so that anyone can follow you without your explicit consent. Or you actively confirm that follow request.

Then you're connected to Bluesky.

And only then will Bluesky know you. As in know your profile. Or what profile information makes it through BridgyFed in the first place. And what of it Bluesky has a way of handling. Maybe not more than your profile picture and your profile text. All stuff that's public anyway, and that Google might have scraped a gajillion times already.

But it will not have your whole backlog of posts.

I mean, if you start following another Mastodon user who has been here for four years, you won't get four years worth of their old posts piled upon your timeline either, right? Or has that ever occurred to you? I guess not.

This is not only because Bluesky doesn't do that. This is because Mastodon doesn't do that. It doesn't send any old posts to new followers, and it doesn't request old posts from new followers.

Let me show this to you from somewhere else in the Fediverse.

I'm on Hubzilla. Hubzilla supports importing old posts to a certain degree. If I follow someone on Hubzilla or (streams), I think, also on Friendica, I get their 10 latest posts into my stream. And I get them as new posts. The perk of this is that I can interact with fairly certain posts that only connections are allowed to interact with (yes, that's possible here) by connecting to the poster.

Also, if I subscribe to an RSS or Atom feed, depending on the feed, I get a certain number of old posts.

But if I connect to someone on Mastodon, I don't get even a single one of their old posts. Because Mastodon doesn't support that.

I don't get their ten latest posts, and I don't get their whole post history either or what's left of it after auto-deletion.

If Hubzilla which supports such stuff doesn't get them, then Bluesky won't get them either. Regardless of what Bluesky may or may not want, and regardless of what BridgyFed is or isn't capable of. Mastodon won't send them, full stop.

The only posts from you that Bluesky will ever get are your public posts which you send after letting someone on Bluesky follow you. And public posts from you that someone with at least one Bluesky follower boosts.

And "public" really means "public". Just because you're on Mastodon and no longer on Twitter, doesn't mean you're in a fully safe haven and fully shielded from the world outside Mastodon. Yes, that's an uncomfortable truth if you've believed otherwise up until now, but it's the truth. Deal with it. You'd have to deal with it sooner or later anyway.

Seriously, what the Fediverse desperately needs is 10-minute videos from a true Fediverse expert, done in the style of "Academic expert explains science like I'm 5 years old" videos with colourful animations, that explain the Fediverse to journalists as well as to fresh or aspiring 𝕏 converts.

And that would take someone who

  • really knows the whole Fediverse inside-out, all the way into its deepest nooks and crannies
  • still doesn't only "speak dev" or "speak admin" and can actually make things understandable to your average tech-illiterate 𝕏 user with only a phone
  • can make such animations
  • can also make these videos fully accessible, not only with a verbatim transcript, but, if necessary, with additional real-time audio descriptions that optionally tell blind or visually-impaired users what happens on-screen, even if what happens on-screen only serves as illustrations for the explanations

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Bluesky #Bridge #BridgyFed #BlueskyBridge

in reply to Jupiter Rowland

Content warning: Bluesky doesn't do as much as people might think / fear... [how it works / explained]

in reply to Better Pe❤ple+Habits? (🔓+🔔)

@FreeSchool=Learn Respect Love

So I'm happy with that explanation and seems like you've put yourself in with half a chance to do such a small video and even prepped it now!
Even this as audio with pics... even here native... I'd listen (not sure elsewhere if I'd click).

So as side-note I'll be happy to help you produce such a thing and even invite you to send similar points by audio (your text above as script already pretty much lol) and I'll arrange it and send back to you complete!

I'm not going to produce any videos. That'd be way too much of an effort, especially meeting Mastodon's accessibility standards plus my own standards.

If this sounds weird, allow me to elaborate.

This is not a general-purpose personal channel. This channel is mainly about 3-D virtual worlds. I sometimes post pictures from these virtual worlds. But whenever I do that, I add an image description that's amongst the longest and most extensive anywhere in the Fediverse. I have to put the image description into the post text itself for several reasons, one reason being that they're too long for alt-text. Not only does Mastodon only support alt-text up to 1,500 characters internally, it also cuts off any alt-text from outside that's longer. And mine are longer.

I think I have very good reasons for writing such long image descriptions.

I've actually thought about making in-world videos one day and uploading them to PeerTube. I've decided against it. Accessibility would make it too much of an effort, and it'd make the videos essentially unwatchable. I'd include an audio description that describes the visuals in the videos on at least the same level of detail as my image descriptions.

So with an audio description added, the video would have to pause every few seconds for several minutes to give me some time to describe what's on-screen at that point, or what has just appeared on-screen, and explain it if necessary. If I didn't stop the video, the audio would not have a chance to catch up with the ever-changing visuals.

Imagine this:

  • Two and a half seconds of actually moving pictures.
  • Voiceover describes the camera movement.
  • A building comes into view.
  • Video stops.
  • Voiceover describes the building and explains what needs to be explained to someone who doesn't know anything about anything in the video.
  • Ten minutes later, the video starts moving again.

The audio description would inflate a ten-minute video to something between six and ten hours.

Okay, now, a video about the Fediverse would not be a video about a virtual world that nobody knows. But still, I expect there to be blind or visually-impaired users who come across such a video, play it and wonder, "What is being shown on the screen? What does this video and all that stuff in it look like?"

I mean, the visuals wouldn't carry any additional information. They'd be purely illustrational. They wouldn't contribute any content to the explanation, only enhance it. Content-wise, the explanation would work all the same with and without these visuals.

But not describing them feels kind of ableist, kind of like not letting non-sighted people experience the video in the exact same way as sighted people. And I always expect there to be non-sighted people who want to have all visuals in a video described in audio.

So I might spend weeks making one 10-minute video which would then be inflated to 30 minutes or an hour by the audio description.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Accessibility #A11y #MediaDescription #AudioDescription

in reply to Jupiter Rowland

Content warning: Teaching others about yourself, helps others enjoy with you and smoth over any gaps...

in reply to Better Pe❤ple+Habits? (🔓+🔔)

@FreeSchool=Learn Respect Love Thanks for your offer, but I'm still not going to do anything in that direction.

But to answer this:

I would like to know what your goal is or even why... to enjoy that with you as mostly we are coming from these types of 'normal' video or ideas as a world but happy to see or hear more...

I had a number of ideas, but nothing with a script behind it. Present places by walking around in them and talking about them, about what I come by. Another idea was to review houses that you can pick up for your own use; I would have done that the same style, often even without knowing the building beforehand.

All of this would have been rather spontaneous with lots of on-screen movement, constant unscripted and largely unprepared talking, pretty much like a Let's Play.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost

in reply to Jupiter Rowland

@jupiter_rowland Does sound nice. Do you have example video of Let's Play specifically link youtube link ( link please)
in reply to Better Pe❤ple+Habits? (🔓+🔔)

@FreeSchool=Learn Respect Love Unfortunately, there are no videos that are even remotely like what I wanted to do. Especially not from the kinds of worlds I visit.
in reply to Jupiter Rowland

@jupiter_rowland Wow, you may have found a niche. I would advise you get on on to that! Have fun for now...