@miss__Tery @zyd The neurotypical style is to start by asking WHY the question was asked, and work backwards to figure out what the question means. In this case, you're supposed to realise that the point of the question is to test what you've learned in maths class, and you're supposed to remember that all the clocks discussed in class were analogue, so the teacher must want you to draw an analogue clock.
@melivia @miss__Tery @zyd Much could be written analysing why the teacher thought it was appropriate to share this image in support of the statement "I have middle school students that cannot read a clock". I also have a lot to say about bad-faith assumptions made by neurotypical people, but that would involve a lot of words and evoke emotions I don't want to go to bed with . . .
@melivia @apm77 @miss__Tery @zyd This entire discussion is so weird to me because I was exactly that piss taker who would provide a technically correct answer to prove my cleverness, and I only rarely got in trouble or felt put out for being told not to do that.
Broken Aesops are my favorite because the entire point of them is humorously erroneous but logical conclusions from the same set of parameters that regular Aesops draw from.
I apologize to everyone that has suffered in my feisty wake but taunting people with a clever unexpected answer is a hoot.
@apm77 @miss__Tery @zyd In school, I often had the feeling that an explanation by a teacher was like a paved road for neurotypical students.
For me, it was more like a river with slippery stones dropped in here and there.
And I kept wondering why the others didn't see the gaping holes in what was supposed to be a "road". How the things a teacher said didn't really "connect" to each other, requiring large leaps of faith.
Of course, neither students nor teachers were able to explain how that stone over there connects to this one right here.
Especially in math, often not only the explanations of the teacher, but also the materials were wrong. (Shoutout to my math book insisting that "supremum" and "maximum" are the same thing.)
@wakame @apm77 @miss__Tery @zyd I recall that UK key stage 2 science deliberately taught students wrong information about liquids turning into solids. They reasoned that water was the most obvious example to use, but wanted students to learn that solids were smaller in volume than liquids. You can probably see where this is going…
@apm77 @miss__Tery @zyd Well that's a bad question if the answer given isn't considered correct, because it is 10 past 11 on a small clock. If I drew an analogue clock and the angle to the 2 wasn't exactly 60 degrees, would I be wrong? And would the hour hand have had to move 1/6 the way between the 11 and 12 for it to be correct?
I have more questions than answers for this teacher.
@zyd how can 10 minutes past 11:00 be 12:10? Even if it were " 10 past the hour" and the hour is 11:00, it still would be 11:10, right? I'm sorry I find this confusing, might be the autism tho
@androcat @miss__Tery @zyd I think only in German speaking countries (half way through the 5th hour). Confusingly (to me!) in parts of southern Germany and, I think, Austria and Switzerland (Liechtenstein too?) they often say 'quarter five' and 'three quarters five' (Viertel fünf and dreiviertel Fünf) to mean 4.15 and 4.45
@alstonvicar @androcat @miss__Tery @zyd then there is five forty, which in Dutch is tien over half zes, or 'ten past half six'. After 17 years, when my Italian wife asks me what time it is, it still takes a few seconds before I have the answer in proper Italian.
@edgeofeurope @androcat @miss__Tery @zyd I'm so glad I made my ill-informed remark - I've learnt so many interesting things as a result :) thank you :)
Well, I've always hated the phrasing so could just be me but it can be understood as either "10 past the hour" meaning 10 minutes after thr current hour, 11:10, or "10 minutes after the hour" which I've always thought meant 10 mintutes after the next hour, so 12:10. I hate language.
@zyd @miss__Tery my guess would be that the teacher was wanting a sketch of an analogue, not digital, clock showing the time as 11:10 - but the child clearly answered the question (as written) correctly
If I am wrong then please illustrate conclusively and precisely what you would like me to do.
I am student and it is your duty as teacher illustrated to me by the education system.
Should you wish not to fulfill my request I will respectfully request your superior to teach you how this works as I’m sure you only wish to fulfill your duty as do I.
@wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery I've heard so many stories of teachers being irritated, or even punishing a student, when a student offers an accurate correction to something the teacher has said.
This bad but also authoritarianism WAI.
(WAI = coder-speak for "working as intended", often followed by WONTFIX)
@melivia @woozle @wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery @alfiekohn Alfie helped me grow so much as an individual, and as a parent. His book Unconditional Parenting is something I recommend to anyone and everyone who'll listen. I give him credit for opening my eyes to a lot of generational trauma I'm (hopefully) avoiding passing down.
@woozle @wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery I remember joyfully sharing a new insight at school that black wasn’t really a colour because colour was really just different wavelengths of light. My teacher replied “don’t be stupid! If black isn’t a colour how come there’s black paint?” The entire class laughed at me. I was 10 at the time 🥲
Many teachers, knowing that the student is at least somewhat capable, will assume that the student is being a “smart arse”. There are plenty of students who will know exactly what the teacher meant, partly because of the fact that the test has come after a unit of work on telling the time on analogue clocks, but has chosen to interpret the question “wrongly” as a joke &/or to annoy the teacher.
However teachers “should” know their students well enough to realise, or at least allow for the possibility, that a student has misinterpreted the question by being “too” literal. Of course, wording the question accurately would avoid such issues and should always be the goal.
@wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery I remember watching a Tony Atwood talk at a conference (on yT). He said an autistic child with a special interest may know more about it than the teacher, will point out inaccuracies and expect them to be grateful for it. Everyone in the audience laughed. And I thought:
@wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery well of course the teacher should be grateful, having an expert point out a mistake or bringing them up to date. You don’t want a whole class to learn something wrong, do you?
And you see - that’s my own little private NT test. They always laugh about things that aren’t funny.
@nellie_m @wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery . They seriously are certain that the world runs on authority. They seriously don't think it is possible to run say, a grocery store, voluntarily. They think humans could not run say, a doctor's office cooperatively, for some neurological reason. 🙄
my grade seven teacher would pause, searching for a word, and I would hive it to him, or tell him what some kid missed when I could see the problem, and he seemed to like it, I felt like an assistant. Nice dude.
@punishmenthurts @wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery yes, I had a couple of teachers who seemed to like my „arguing“ with them and gave me good grades. Maybe they were autistic, too, and loved that a student was genuinely interested in their favourite subject?
@nellie_m @wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery maybe. He had this one motivational speech, repeated a few times, because after grade seven then and here was high school, where you'd "sink or swim," unless you did the work. I didn't like the speech - and I promptly sank. 😘
@nellie_m At all times, it is a curse to know more about a subject than your teacher, when you are a child. Even if the teacher is appreciative, fellow students see you as a showoff, teacher's pet, etc. I have to admit to boredom. Half the year not learning anything new.🥱 @wakame @Jobob @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
@Tooden @wakame @Jobob @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery I had an agreement with a maths teacher in one of my apprenticeships - as long as I kept good grades in tests I was allowed to silently learn Italian in class 😂
@nellie_m @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery that sounds like a wise teacher :) I think when I was a teacher I was happy to be corrected by students - but I know some of my colleagues felt very threatened by the possibility of not knowing something a student did. That made no sense to me - I always thought a teacher should model good learning.
@nellie_m @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery I remember, as a student teacher on a placement, doing a year 7 French lesson about pets. We had a few minutes spare so I asked the class if they had any pets we hadn't mentioned yet that they wanted to know the French word for. The other students in the room were horrified, because the kids might have asked a word we didn't know and shown us up. I couldn't - and still can't - see why that would have been a problem.
Hands down the best ever maths lesson was the one where the teacher had given us an unsolvable homework because there was a typo in our book. He then said okay, let’s figure out what’s wrong here, he didn’t know either, and we all did it together. That felt fantastic!
@alstonvicar @nellie_m @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery I now realise that some of those students who knew more & were delighted to share their knowledge were probably autistic. (And there would’ve been others who kept quiet as part of their masking as I eventually learned to do. I still remember telling myself not to answer as many questions in class, or in as much detail.) But I was often delighted & felt privileged to witness the superior knowledge &/or intellect of some students. One of the privileges of teaching.
@Susan60 @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery yes, I think becoming a teacher is what quite a few of us will feel drawn towards. And I think we’re good ones if we find the right environment.
I’m sure you’ve made a difference in the life of many an autistic student 💛
@nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery I hope so, & NT students too. Finding a good supportive environment is the challenge. I left the profession nearly 7 years ago, tired of a difficult system & masking, without realising I was doing so.
A new program involving teachers watching each other teach & giving feedback was part of what finished me. The feedback was meant to be encouraging, but poor training meant that some teachers were harshly critiquing their colleagues. Just knowing that that could happen (it didn’t) was stressful. (One assistant principal watched me teach & gave very affirming feedback, but she was not typical of the leadership style at that school.)
And then there were the student surveys. 14yos can be scathing (almost competetively so), & we’re much more likely to notice negative feedback than the rare positive stuff.
But I also received some lovely feedback from some students & parents over the years.
@Susan60 @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery that sounds awfully stressful indeed. I’m sorry. Kind of tragic that something that’s meant to improve things can backfire so badly, making the very people leave that should really stay.
@Susan60 @nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery Many thanks to all you who were teachers. I was very lucky to have some really key ones sprinkled through the years of my (autistic) childhood and they sure made a big difference. I will never ever forget them @actuallyautistic
@Coffeemug @nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery I know that there’s a lot of good NT teachers out there, but I wonder how many of those who reached out to support particular students did so because they were autistic & more empathetic & sensitive to the needs of those students? I was sometimes scoffed at & told I “cared too much”.
@Susan60 That's a question I've been wondering about, as to whether they were autistic or not. I suspect they weren't but it's all guesswork for me. I just regarded them as nice people. I marvel the most at our 6th grade teacher, a Marine in ww2 that it seems managed to survive the war in the larger sense. Our parents seemed to have some idea what he had been through but we never got a hint of it. @nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
@Coffeemug @nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery Some former soldiers ended up as teachers & were awfully unsuited, or found it too stressful on top of ptsd, but others seemed to be perfectly suited to the job. My French teacher was strict & humourless, but not unfair. She was a Holocaust survivor from the camps.,
@Susan60 2/2 In later years some of us students ran across him out in public and he remembered our names and wanted to hear how we were doing, what our plans were ect.
Both my parents, my grandmother on my mother's side and her mother too were teachers but looking back none of them had any nack for dealing with autism. Hearing your experiences I feel like I was lucky I didn't try to follow that path. @nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
I’m not sure I was always helpful with neurodiverse kids. I was undiagnosed & ignorant, & there were some stimming behaviours that irritated me, such as pen clicking, leg jiggling etc. I would never scold students for doing so, but I did ask them to stop. I eventually took a squeeze ball into class, but that wouldn’t have suited all kids. But at least I was t outright aggressively disparaging, so that’s good.
@Susan60 Ha, pen clicking and leg jiggling. That's always gotten on my nerves when from others. But I think I only did it at home and not school. School aside, my guess is that autistic/adhd folks experiencing each other (assuming the subject of autism is foreign) is a real roll of the dice as to how it goes. I know moving forward I'm going to really try to practice being more forgiving and tolerant. @nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
@Tooden @nellie_m @wakame @Jobob @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery Teachers need to manage this very carefully. Good teachers and good classes have no problem here. Insecure teachers and classes with no prosocial orientation can't cope.
@wakame @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery Apply that to something like politics and argume- *ahem* conversations 😂 And suddenly everything makes so much more sense
@alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery I agree with the analogue clock interpretation. When I was in school, digital clocks were fairly rare, so the issue didn't come up much -- but teachers (especially NT teachers) may not realize how much the context has changed, and what assumptions might be affected by that. (That only explains the lack of clarity in the instructions; it does not excuse marking the answer "wrong" -- because it is absolutely correct.)
@woozle @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery I oft wondered about what compels many teachers to this sort of worldview: “it’s not the answer I’m looking for so it is incorrect even though it is obviously correct”. I decided institutionalization of teacher training inculcates a belief in the primacy of their own authority as the primary goal of education. That is, it’s not just an NT issue, but NT + teaching as process of blind authority.
@Shufei @woozle @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery i have and continue to work for people who do this -- it's about the process and not the result that matters
and of course there can be only one right process to get the answer
@filmfreak75 @Shufei @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery I wonder if beliefs like this are behind a lot of the way democracy (especially in the US) has been going off the rails lately -- voters not really understanding how things work, and having only a set of rituals which they apply in various circumstances, and we end up with absolutely abysmal people in positions of power.
@woozle @filmfreak75 @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery It’s a natural drift when a society decides to stop educating children as whole persons and citizens, but to become mere labour drones for the corporate state. The requisite skills for critical thinking are missing, as are the quiet spaces for habits of rigorous and deep introspection. The societal *ontological* decline is thick these days.
@Shufei @woozle @filmfreak75 @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery It's doubtful that drift is borne of one overall decision -- more likely a series of diversions to the paths of least resistance.
Schools, e.g., may feel pressure to recruit by promising success in the job market (or gain business support by delivering a trained workforce), which crowds-out the goal of preparing them for intelligent citizenship. That path has huge consequences down the line.
@alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery I think this test is probably from a unit about reading analog clock faces, so that context is probably how it got marked wrong. Still a shitty thing to do when instructions aren't clear, but the solution would require individual interaction ("show me you can do this with an analog face and I'll mark it correct")
@zyd @miss__Tery No, they expected the student to draw an analog clock instead of a digital one, but didn't include that in the prompt. Then they behaved like a dick by marking a correct answer wrong.
@twan @encthenet @miss__Tery Even if the whole week of class had been about how to read an analog clock — which would’ve made the context for the question obvious to most — it makes more sense to praise the kid for creative, lateral thinking, but give them a chance to provide the right answer with an analog clock face.
Those students have a middle-school teacher who isn't much of a teacher. Most kids think of a radio alarm, or the readout on a microwave, or DVD player, as a clock. Not the round thing with the hands. Their phone, or their tablet has a digital readout. Did she specify ANALOG?🙄@actuallyautistic
My biggest problem with tests in school was interpreting the damn questions (& multiple choice answers) in the way they were supposedly intended vs the infinite permutations of nuance & “but what if instead” logics swirling in my cranium
When I was in elementary school, we were asked to calculate the area of a kitchen table. Apparently everyone was either NT( I didn’t do the NT backwards questioning so I didn’t understand it was to test our knowledge on how to calculate area of a circle.) or they had a circular kitchen table. Ours was a rectangle 🙃 only given was one length information. So I assumed they want us to assume a square, of course I was wrong! I cried all day and all night. Luckily my parents were kind 🙂 they discussed this with some friends, then with my teacher. My teacher was very kind, talked to me on the phone and said I was right to assume what I assumed and the question needs to be clearer. Even this didn’t help me feel better. That sadness and disappointment never ceased. Looking back, this was one my first experiences with how the societally accepted mind works. And the seeds of me believing I will be always wrong whatever I do, say, decide, were being planted. Now I have a forest living inside me.
A drawer has 8 blue socks and 6 red socks. How many socks does one need to remove from the drawer to get a pair?
My answer: 2; the "correct" answer: 9.
The question did not specify that the sock draws were blind. The question did not specify that a pair consists of two socks of the same color, rather than the colloquial meaning of "pair", which is 2. The question did not address why all socks are evil foot-stranglers.
@Georgy It took me a few years after exiting school to realize that I was wrong less often than I thought, and people were just really bad at communicating what they want. Wasted years.
@punishmenthurts @nellie_m @Georgy If they had asked about blind selection without replacement from set A and set B instead of making it about socks, I probably would have answered correctly. The attempt to make it more understandable made it worse.
@punishmenthurts @nellie_m @Georgy Oof. Presumably 4 left blue socks, 4 right blue socks, 3 left red socks, and 3 right red socks, if we aren't accounting for laundry mishap that eats single socks. Then you could answer 8 and be wrong because the questioner considered socks to be non-chiral.
my rules as a teacher: "if you don't understand then it's my fault. If I don't know that you don't understand then it is your fault." Students must feel free to ask for clarification, and a cross without explanation is missing a learning opportunity. But the exercise in this case was badly phrased, therefore the teachers fault.
@filmfreak75 @Shufei And also, as much as I like analogue clock-faces, being able to read one is not an important skill in today’s world. As someone said upthread, clocks with digital displays are everywhere.
@melivia @filmfreak75 But so are analogue clocks. Everywhere. And aren’t really going anywhere. So maybe reports of the death of this skill are greatly exaggerated. Maybe the problem is a decline in the educational foundations.
I'm not on the spectrum and I still feel this. Then again, much of why I tend to succeed at my job is because I'm pretty pedantic about eliminating ambiguousness from taskings before starting to engage in actual work.
Can I just point out how shitty it is that some teacher decided it was a good idea to try to make their students seem "less smart" because of this (obviously correct) answer? I cannot fathom how mean someone would have to be to think that PUBLICLY dunking on the kids they teach was a cool thing to do. (Really what they did was show how inadequate their education methods are.)
That certainly looks like all the clocks in our house. Would be interesting to know what type of clock was in the classroom, or do classrooms not have clocks anymore.
Me: sees a small clock showing 10 minutes past 11 in the image Me: sees the teacher assuming a problem even though the student followed the directions as stated
also me: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! If you want an analog clock SAY THATJUST SAY WHAT YOU MEAN, HOW HARD IS THAT?
I accidentally made dessert butter, once. Suitable for pancakes, waffles, baking sweets. It was supposed to be whipped cream for Thanksgiving pies, but I got distracted and the mixer kept mixing until we had dessert butter.
It wouldn't surprise me if this was accompanied by lots of questions/images relating to analogue clocks. But if a person's brain works a certain way, or even if not, context may well not be enough. There's also, confusingly, cases where lateral thinking is praised rather than punished.
not only would I demand this task to be rated as "correct" but also demand the task to be corrected accordingly to state that it demands an analog clock!
🥺 This reminds me so much of when I was in school… The dismissive “X”s when I was really trying my best and wanted feedback were the worst. I hope this kid gets all the love and care they deserve
@Li ~ Crystal System @Dorgaldir🇧🇪 they wanted an analog clock, but of course assumed that when asked to draw a clock everyone would draw analog by default...
@luana nothing is wrong with the answer but the question. As already said, it is poor explaination if there is only an 'expectation' for people to understand they should draw an analogue clock. I dont think this is specific to ASD though, its just poor question setting for everyone
Back when I was teaching, this would've been a correct answer, because as the author of the question, I failed to specify. If you're teaching (especially in math class), precision matters!
Asking good, meaningful, precise questions is a remarkably difficult skill.
This picture is very weird to me, the #MiniCog is an instrument for assessing possible #cognitive decline in clinical practice. Part of the MiniCog is asking the person to fill in a round clock face with appropriate numbers and arms indicating "10 minutes past 11". Cognitive impairment can show up as in appropriately arranged numbers, bad spacing, arms pointed at the incorrect numbers, stuff like that. All of it gets scored along with a three word memory recall as an assessment. Not kids. That's not where the 10 minutes past 11 language is used as far as I know. It's just a weird meme.
@Vincarsi like thank you for that clarification, but seriously wtf. just say that??? is it really so hard to say "with a minute and hour hand, show 10 minutes past 11"????? I know this is entirely The Point just. damn.
That instruction should have been more specific. Analog would have been a nice bit of information about the desired clock. I hope some of the students argued about missing the question.
Miss Tery
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λzyd
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λzyd
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Miss Tery
in reply to λzyd • • •They need to be more specific, seriously!
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apm77
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Seph‽ 🍞🌹
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apm77
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Ciggy Bringer of Smoke
in reply to Seph‽ 🍞🌹 • • •@melivia @apm77 @miss__Tery @zyd
This entire discussion is so weird to me because I was exactly that piss taker who would provide a technically correct answer to prove my cleverness, and I only rarely got in trouble or felt put out for being told not to do that.
Broken Aesops are my favorite because the entire point of them is humorously erroneous but logical conclusions from the same set of parameters that regular Aesops draw from.
I apologize to everyone that has suffered in my feisty wake but taunting people with a clever unexpected answer is a hoot.
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Tuxedo Wa-Kamen
in reply to apm77 • • •@apm77 @miss__Tery @zyd
In school, I often had the feeling that an explanation by a teacher was like a paved road for neurotypical students.
For me, it was more like a river with slippery stones dropped in here and there.
And I kept wondering why the others didn't see the gaping holes in what was supposed to be a "road". How the things a teacher said didn't really "connect" to each other, requiring large leaps of faith.
Of course, neither students nor teachers were able to explain how that stone over there connects to this one right here.
Especially in math, often not only the explanations of the teacher, but also the materials were wrong.
(Shoutout to my math book insisting that "supremum" and "maximum" are the same thing.)
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Franchesca
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Tuxedo Wa-Kamen
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Joe
in reply to apm77 • • •@apm77 @miss__Tery @zyd
Well that's a bad question if the answer given isn't considered correct, because it is 10 past 11 on a small clock. If I drew an analogue clock and the angle to the 2 wasn't exactly 60 degrees, would I be wrong? And would the hour hand have had to move 1/6 the way between the 11 and 12 for it to be correct?
I have more questions than answers for this teacher.
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Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷
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Miss Tery
in reply to λzyd • • •I'm sorry I find this confusing, might be the autism tho
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Androcat
in reply to Miss Tery • • •@miss__Tery
I think they wanted a dialface clock, not a digital.
10 past 11 is indeed 11:10
It's "half five" that is stupid, because it means "half past five" in English, but "half past four" in many continental countries (half-way to five).
@zyd @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
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MarkNW
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Androcat
in reply to MarkNW • • •@alstonvicar
German, Slavic, Nordic all have the half five bit meaning 16:30.
"Kvart over" and "kvart i" is for quarter past and quarter to in Danish. Without the prepositions, that would be rather confusing to me as well.
@miss__Tery @zyd @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
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MarkNW
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Androcat
in reply to MarkNW • • •@alstonvicar Such a tiny ignorance is nothing to feel ashamed of.
Other air out much larger ignorances with gusto :D
@miss__Tery @zyd @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
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Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷
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Tuxedo Wa-Kamen
in reply to Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷 • • •Neurotypical definition of "right": It is only "right" if it matches my implicit requirements.
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Joanna McKenzie
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Tuxedo Wa-Kamen
in reply to Joanna McKenzie • • •@Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery
This, of course, leads to how the typical neurotypical student/parent reacts:
"The teacher is always right, because they have a higher social standing."
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immibis
in reply to Tuxedo Wa-Kamen • • •Israel is right to do genocide because it has higher social standing.
Politicians aren't neurological, mind you - they're psychopaths.
Everyday.Human Derek
in reply to Tuxedo Wa-Kamen • • •@wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery
My teacher taught me the rules of accuracy,and humility.
If I am wrong then please illustrate conclusively and precisely what you would like me to do.
I am student and it is your duty as teacher illustrated to me by the education system.
Should you wish not to fulfill my request I will respectfully request your superior to teach you how this works as I’m sure you only wish to fulfill your duty as do I.
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Woozle Hypertwin
in reply to Tuxedo Wa-Kamen • • •@wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery
I've heard so many stories of teachers being irritated, or even punishing a student, when a student offers an accurate correction to something the teacher has said.
This bad but also authoritarianism WAI.
(WAI = coder-speak for "working as intended", often followed by WONTFIX)
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Tuxedo Wa-Kamen
in reply to Woozle Hypertwin • • •Yep. School as a "social filter".
"The purpose of a system is what it does."
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Seph‽ 🍞🌹
in reply to Woozle Hypertwin • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Warren Piece
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Franchesca
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Susan60
in reply to Woozle Hypertwin • • •@woozle @wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery
As a teacher I can say that sometimes it is the case, but not always.
Many teachers, knowing that the student is at least somewhat capable, will assume that the student is being a “smart arse”. There are plenty of students who will know exactly what the teacher meant, partly because of the fact that the test has come after a unit of work on telling the time on analogue clocks, but has chosen to interpret the question “wrongly” as a joke &/or to annoy the teacher.
However teachers “should” know their students well enough to realise, or at least allow for the possibility, that a student has misinterpreted the question by being “too” literal. Of course, wording the question accurately would avoid such issues and should always be the goal.
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nellie-m
in reply to Tuxedo Wa-Kamen • • •@wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery
I remember watching a Tony Atwood talk at a conference (on yT). He said an autistic child with a special interest may know more about it than the teacher, will point out inaccuracies and expect them to be grateful for it. Everyone in the audience laughed. And I thought:
1/2
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nellie-m
in reply to nellie-m • • •@wakame @Jobob @Tooden @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery
well of course the teacher should be grateful, having an expert point out a mistake or bringing them up to date. You don’t want a whole class to learn something wrong, do you?
And you see - that’s my own little private NT test. They always laugh about things that aren’t funny.
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the Amygdalai Lama
in reply to nellie-m • • •.
They seriously are certain that the world runs on authority.
They seriously don't think it is possible to run say, a grocery store, voluntarily. They think humans could not run say, a doctor's office cooperatively, for some neurological reason.
🙄
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the Amygdalai Lama
in reply to the Amygdalai Lama • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
the Amygdalai Lama
in reply to the Amygdalai Lama • • •my glory days 😀
I loved that role, backup, fill in, completionist, correcter ❤️
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nellie-m
in reply to the Amygdalai Lama • • •yes, I had a couple of teachers who seemed to like my „arguing“ with them and gave me good grades. Maybe they were autistic, too, and loved that a student was genuinely interested in their favourite subject?
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the Amygdalai Lama
in reply to nellie-m • • •maybe. He had this one motivational speech, repeated a few times, because after grade seven then and here was high school, where you'd "sink or swim," unless you did the work. I didn't like the speech - and I promptly sank. 😘
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Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷
in reply to nellie-m • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
nellie-m
in reply to Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷 • • •I had an agreement with a maths teacher in one of my apprenticeships - as long as I kept good grades in tests I was allowed to silently learn Italian in class 😂
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MarkNW
in reply to nellie-m • • •I think when I was a teacher I was happy to be corrected by students - but I know some of my colleagues felt very threatened by the possibility of not knowing something a student did. That made no sense to me - I always thought a teacher should model good learning.
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MarkNW
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nellie-m
in reply to MarkNW • • •@alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery
yes, why not look it up together 💛
Hands down the best ever maths lesson was the one where the teacher had given us an unsolvable homework because there was a typo in our book. He then said okay, let’s figure out what’s wrong here, he didn’t know either, and we all did it together. That felt fantastic!
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Susan60
in reply to MarkNW • • •I now realise that some of those students who knew more & were delighted to share their knowledge were probably autistic. (And there would’ve been others who kept quiet as part of their masking as I eventually learned to do. I still remember telling myself not to answer as many questions in class, or in as much detail.) But I was often delighted & felt privileged to witness the superior knowledge &/or intellect of some students. One of the privileges of teaching.
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nellie-m
in reply to Susan60 • • •@Susan60 @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery
yes, I think becoming a teacher is what quite a few of us will feel drawn towards. And I think we’re good ones if we find the right environment.
I’m sure you’ve made a difference in the life of many an autistic student 💛
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Susan60
in reply to nellie-m • • •@nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery
I hope so, & NT students too. Finding a good supportive environment is the challenge. I left the profession nearly 7 years ago, tired of a difficult system & masking, without realising I was doing so.
A new program involving teachers watching each other teach & giving feedback was part of what finished me. The feedback was meant to be encouraging, but poor training meant that some teachers were harshly critiquing their colleagues. Just knowing that that could happen (it didn’t) was stressful. (One assistant principal watched me teach & gave very affirming feedback, but she was not typical of the leadership style at that school.)
And then there were the student surveys. 14yos can be scathing (almost competetively so), & we’re much more likely to notice negative feedback than the rare positive stuff.
But I also received some lovely feedback from some students & parents over the years.
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nellie-m
in reply to Susan60 • • •that sounds awfully stressful indeed. I’m sorry. Kind of tragic that something that’s meant to improve things can backfire so badly, making the very people leave that should really stay.
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Nick 🫣
in reply to Susan60 • • •@actuallyautistic
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Susan60
in reply to Nick 🫣 • • •I know that there’s a lot of good NT teachers out there, but I wonder how many of those who reached out to support particular students did so because they were autistic & more empathetic & sensitive to the needs of those students? I was sometimes scoffed at & told I “cared too much”.
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Nick 🫣
in reply to Susan60 • • •That's a question I've been wondering about, as to whether they were autistic or not. I suspect they weren't but it's all guesswork for me. I just regarded them as nice people. I marvel the most at our 6th grade teacher, a Marine in ww2 that it seems managed to survive the war in the larger sense. Our parents seemed to have some idea what he had been through but we never got a hint of it.
@nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
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Susan60
in reply to Nick 🫣 • • •Some former soldiers ended up as teachers & were awfully unsuited, or found it too stressful on top of ptsd, but others seemed to be perfectly suited to the job. My French teacher was strict & humourless, but not unfair. She was a Holocaust survivor from the camps.,
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Nick 🫣
in reply to Susan60 • • •I finally don't feel like I have to tolerate it. @nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
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Nick 🫣
in reply to Nick 🫣 • • •@Susan60
2/2 In later years some of us students ran across him out in public and he remembered our names and wanted to hear how we were doing, what our plans were ect.
Both my parents, my grandmother on my mother's side and her mother too were teachers but looking back none of them had any nack for dealing with autism. Hearing your experiences I feel like I was lucky I didn't try to follow that path.
@nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
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Susan60
in reply to Nick 🫣 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Nick 🫣
in reply to Susan60 • • •Ha, pen clicking and leg jiggling. That's always gotten on my nerves when from others. But I think I only did it at home and not school. School aside, my guess is that autistic/adhd folks experiencing each other (assuming the subject of autism is foreign) is a real roll of the dice as to how it goes. I know moving forward I'm going to really try to practice being more forgiving and tolerant.
@nellie_m @alstonvicar @Tooden @wakame @Jobob @zyd @miss__Tery @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
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Nick 🫣
in reply to Susan60 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
GinevraCat
in reply to MarkNW • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
GinevraCat
in reply to Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
MarkNW
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Zeewater
in reply to Tuxedo Wa-Kamen • • •And suddenly everything makes so much more sense
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Miss Tery
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Woozle Hypertwin
in reply to MarkNW • • •I agree with the analogue clock interpretation. When I was in school, digital clocks were fairly rare, so the issue didn't come up much -- but teachers (especially NT teachers) may not realize how much the context has changed, and what assumptions might be affected by that. (That only explains the lack of clarity in the instructions; it does not excuse marking the answer "wrong" -- because it is absolutely correct.)
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Shufei 🫠
in reply to Woozle Hypertwin • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Sean C.
in reply to Shufei 🫠 • • •@Shufei @woozle @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery i have and continue to work for people who do this -- it's about the process and not the result that matters
and of course there can be only one right process to get the answer
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Woozle Hypertwin
in reply to Sean C. • • •I wonder if beliefs like this are behind a lot of the way democracy (especially in the US) has been going off the rails lately -- voters not really understanding how things work, and having only a set of rituals which they apply in various circumstances, and we end up with absolutely abysmal people in positions of power.
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Shufei 🫠
in reply to Woozle Hypertwin • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
J H Libby
in reply to Shufei 🫠 • • •@Shufei @woozle @filmfreak75 @alstonvicar @zyd @miss__Tery It's doubtful that drift is borne of one overall decision -- more likely a series of diversions to the paths of least resistance.
Schools, e.g., may feel pressure to recruit by promising success in the job market (or gain business support by delivering a trained workforce), which crowds-out the goal of preparing them for intelligent citizenship. That path has huge consequences down the line.
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Crilth
in reply to MarkNW • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Rachel Rawlings
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Miss Tery
in reply to Rachel Rawlings • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
John-Mark Gurney
in reply to Miss Tery • • •I think they were suppose to draw the clock with hands. But the instructions are terrible as usual.
@dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
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Twan
in reply to John-Mark Gurney • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Andrew Hinton
in reply to Twan • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
millions :spinny_cat_bi:
in reply to Miss Tery • • •Sebastien 🌍 🇵🇸🇺🇦
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Hugs4friends ♾🇺🇦 🇵🇸😷
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GinkelKarin
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •Draw a small analog clock...
Just 1 word makes a lot of difference
With the formulation in above test, you can't say "wrong" 🤷
@actuallyautistic
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GinkelKarin
in reply to GinkelKarin • • •analog could also be "old-fashioned", round with arms etc etc
But look at your mobile, oven, microwave, smartwatch etc etc. How does it show time nowadays?
@actuallyautistic
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Andrew Hinton
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
⚡️ axeshun ⚡️ :toad:
in reply to Andrew Hinton • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Georgy
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •I cried all day and all night. Luckily my parents were kind 🙂 they discussed this with some friends, then with my teacher. My teacher was very kind, talked to me on the phone and said I was right to assume what I assumed and the question needs to be clearer. Even this didn’t help me feel better. That sadness and disappointment never ceased. Looking back, this was one my first experiences with how the societally accepted mind works. And the seeds of me believing I will be always wrong whatever I do, say, decide, were being planted. Now I have a forest living inside me.
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Log 🪵
in reply to Georgy • • •A drawer has 8 blue socks and 6 red socks. How many socks does one need to remove from the drawer to get a pair?
My answer: 2; the "correct" answer: 9.
The question did not specify that the sock draws were blind. The question did not specify that a pair consists of two socks of the same color, rather than the colloquial meaning of "pair", which is 2. The question did not address why all socks are evil foot-stranglers.
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Georgy
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Log 🪵
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nellie-m
in reply to Georgy • • •Yes. I would have totally regarded this as a trick question. Such an ordinary everyday thing to do: open drawer, pick two socks, done.
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the Amygdalai Lama
in reply to nellie-m • • •.
I simply walked through it, did the math - because way down there in the single integers I can sort of do math. 😀
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Log 🪵
in reply to the Amygdalai Lama • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
the Amygdalai Lama
in reply to the Amygdalai Lama • • •Because if not, my socks tend to become right and left socks and then it could take more 😀
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Log 🪵
in reply to the Amygdalai Lama • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
the Amygdalai Lama
in reply to Log 🪵 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Julie Smith
in reply to Georgy • • •@Georgy *gentle "hug" 💝
@dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
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Nick 🫣
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Caddi
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •But the exercise in this case was badly phrased, therefore the teachers fault.
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Kate Fosk
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Shufei 🫠
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Sean C.
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Seph‽ 🍞🌹
in reply to Sean C. • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Shufei 🫠
in reply to Seph‽ 🍞🌹 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
ferricoxide
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •💙 Bwee the Fluffdragon 💙
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
:fourthwall: █████ :fourthwall: (( MagmaSys ))
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •Sayuri 💛⬜️💜🖤 ΘΔ
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Richard W. Woodley NO THREADS 🇨🇦🌹🚴♂️📷 🗺️
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •Would be interesting to know what type of clock was in the classroom, or do classrooms not have clocks anymore.
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Paul SomeoneElse
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •The the tax form asking if i own my own home ...
the bank does, but the answer is still yes. same energy
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Pam C
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Jeffrey Hulten
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Pam C
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myrmepropagandist
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •As a teacher I'd give full credit for that. The question is poorly worded.
It also means I'd get to teach them the meaning of the word "analog"
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Toni :v_tfem: :v_pan: :v_greyace:
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •Content warning: Caps
Me: sees a small clock showing 10 minutes past 11 in the image
Me: sees the teacher assuming a problem even though the student followed the directions as stated
also me: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! If you want an analog clock SAY THAT JUST SAY WHAT YOU MEAN, HOW HARD IS THAT?
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random thoughts
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🌟ジギーくん
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Josh
in reply to 🌟ジギーくん • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Jeffrey Hulten
in reply to Josh • • •There's YouTube videos for that. Apparently you need a mason jar and a reciprocating saw.
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Josh
in reply to Jeffrey Hulten • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Jeffrey Hulten
in reply to Josh • • •I would never kid about power tools and butter.
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ScottinSoCal 🇺🇦 🕊 🏳🌈
in reply to Josh • • •@jcmrva
I accidentally made dessert butter, once. Suitable for pancakes, waffles, baking sweets. It was supposed to be whipped cream for Thanksgiving pies, but I got distracted and the mixer kept mixing until we had dessert butter.
@zigi_now9 @dorgaldir @actuallyautistic
alastair87
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •jn
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Kevin Karhan :verified:
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Hailey
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Li ~ Crystal System
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Shiri Bailem
in reply to Li ~ Crystal System • •like this
Haelus Novak and Katrina Katrinka :donor: like this.
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Very evil Kuru Kuru :herta_speen:
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •This is the type of teacher that demands to have respect too.
It's always annoying when teachers and/or professors demand respect when they do nothing to earn it and/or failed into the position.
The teachers who care about their students and go out of their way to teach their students worth of respect, but respect should be earned, not given.
🎄🏳️🌈🎃🇧🇷Luana🇧🇷🎃🏳️🌈 :verified:
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Dremmwel ar Vran Ruz
in reply to 🎄🏳️🌈🎃🇧🇷Luana🇧🇷🎃🏳️🌈 :verified: • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Mind Shambles
in reply to 🎄🏳️🌈🎃🇧🇷Luana🇧🇷🎃🏳️🌈 :verified: • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Warren Piece
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •"What we have here is a failure to communicate."
Back when I was teaching, this would've been a correct answer, because as the author of the question, I failed to specify. If you're teaching (especially in math class), precision matters!
Asking good, meaningful, precise questions is a remarkably difficult skill.
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Mycotropic
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •Not kids. That's not where the 10 minutes past 11 language is used as far as I know.
It's just a weird meme.
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Sabella
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Vincarsi
in reply to Sabella • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Sabella
in reply to Vincarsi • • •I know this is entirely The Point just. damn.
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Vincarsi
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TJ 🏳️🌈
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •@actuallyautistic
That instruction should have been more specific. Analog would have been a nice bit of information about the desired clock. I hope some of the students argued about missing the question.
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Elizabeth
in reply to Dorgaldir🇧🇪 • • •ActuallyAutistic group reshared this.
Zumbador
in reply to Elizabeth • • •@Elizabeth3
The question writer meant the answer to be an analogue clock, not a digital one.
Elizabeth
in reply to Zumbador • • •