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Been seeing the "Nazi Bar" analogy in regards to Twitter lately.

To recap: it's the suggestion that people remaining on Twitter are fascists or tolerating fascism for remaining much like those who visit a Nazi bar.

This is a privileged take and not a clean analogy. The bar is a non-vital space with plenty of competition, you don't have to drink, you don't have to go to that bar.

Twitter may not be as huge as Facebook and a little easier to move away from, but no place has really solidified itself as the place to go instead (despite what many think about Mastodon/Activity-Pub), and the communities still take time and effort to move.

On top of that, these places (yes FB included) have always been fascist leaning. It's just you finally hearing all the dog-whistles. So many of these communities were hearing the dog-whistles from the start but didn't have anywhere else to go, so they had to fight to establish themselves in what spaces they had.

Don't judge them for having difficulty moving and re-establishing in a new space when every space is a huge effort to claim. The fediverse isn't immune to racism and fascism, there's absolutely whole new fights to be had here against bigotry, especially the privileged neo-liberal sort.

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in reply to Shiri Bailem

odd_megan
odd_megan
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bars dont necessarily have a lot of competition, particularly in rural communities, often there is like one local pub and thats it. and yeah, like leaving a pub, there is some community loss, but id rather not be supporting the fash bar? i lost lots of cool academic contacts when i left that app, you just gotta take the loss and not let loss avertion trap you in a bad situation where you are supporting an oranisation activly doing harm
in reply to odd_megan

Shiri Bailem
Shiri Bailem
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@odd_megan it goes beyond that in many marginalized communities where you often might be asking them to walk away from significant support and organization efforts.

Those organizational efforts aren't going to magically transplant to a single consistent space, and there's going to be whole new fights to be had in any space they move to because of the ever presence of bigotry (AP is not immune). So by insisting that they're awful for being there is demanding that they go into diaspora and have to rebuild communities and resources from scratch.

Not everyone was on Twitter for leisure.

@odd_megan
in reply to Shiri Bailem

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •

yeah, i wasnt, i was there for professional networking.

thats litterally how it was before twitter though, communities had their own spaces in various forms, sure we will have to make communities on new platforms, but thats just how it was before, arguably its a lot safer. This isnt hard, it just takes a bit of doing, like a lot of communities have shifted to discords for example (although that too, not a great company)

in reply to odd_megan

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •
leaving twitter and adopting other methods of organising is very much doable, and indded other platforms persisted and were still used by lots of communities during twitter. particularly as the tools to make your own spaces are now much more accessable than they were before twitter, i dont realy have any sympathy for the "its hard" argument. the "diaspora" argument dosnt realy work either, as these communties already existed off twitter. no new problem is being created.
in reply to odd_megan

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •
additionally, even at the utter extreeme, say all of my friends and support were at the nazi pub, i would still stop going to the nazi pub. I have lived long streches of my life without support or friends, and its utterly doable. I would have a very hard time seeing any benefit i could derrive, even if it was my sole means of social contact and i couldnt do anything else like other websites or in person community, that would make it a good idea to stay in the nazi pub.
in reply to odd_megan

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •
and to be clear, folks can use other websites or in person or other machanisms for community an social contact. alternatives exist, and even if they didnt, i think at this stage leaveing twitter would still be the best choice bar some extreeme i havent been able to think of even worse than loosing all social contact of any kind (which is almost definitly not going to happen to anyone due to the proliferation of alternatives)
in reply to odd_megan

Shiri Bailem
Shiri Bailem
•

@odd_megan that's not doable for everyone, and also in regards to other spaces it's mostly transitional.

This wave is still pretty new as far as broad culture goes, many are waiting and looking to see where the space will be. They're not necessarily idling, they're building those spaces elsewhere but because you can be in two places at once online, they're still over in the Twitter spaces because it's still "the space" and they need to be there to get the necessary support and also to see where people go when they leave it.

It's crucially important to not judge marginalized groups based on the standards and experiences of unmarginalized (or differently marginalized) identities.

@odd_megan
in reply to Shiri Bailem

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •
i duno, i think "dont support the nazis" is a fairly reasonable ask? i have family members who were tortured for sticking to that principal, and its one i would litterally die for.
in reply to odd_megan

Shiri Bailem
Shiri Bailem
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@odd_megan I prefer Pikuach Nefesh, life is the highest commandment. If you have to deal with a Nazi business to survive and protect yourself, then you're permitted to do so... but only to the extent necessary.
@odd_megan
in reply to Shiri Bailem

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •
, i agree about judgeing folks in other groups, often we cant fully understand the circumstances due to distance and privilage etc. but i think humans have certain things is common, and as such somethings are kinda universal for humans, and i think supporting fash is as close as it gets to a universal absolute.
in reply to odd_megan

Shiri Bailem
Shiri Bailem
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@odd_megan the argument is what qualifies as supporting fascism... I'd agree with you if it was people encouraging others to use Twitter, not seeking alternatives at all, etc. But not when it's "I need to use Twitter to access the support I need and there really isn't an adequate replacement yet"
@odd_megan
in reply to Shiri Bailem

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •
but merely having an account does help the site, as it subsists of add revenue. (i still know folks who have twitter blue, or whatever its called now, and justify it as being necessary for their buisness, which definitly counts as supporting the fash, directly, financially) even having an account, even not activly using it, still helps them pitch to advertisers.
in reply to Shiri Bailem

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •
like most points of religious law, im sure theres a lot of discussion about exceptions, limits etc regarding that principal (i have no familiarity with it myself). its obvs a complex issue, even those who felt they had to collaborate with fash to save their own lives or the lives of others still had to undergo horrible stuff, and i wouldnt tell someone in that position they had failed moraly.
in reply to odd_megan

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •
but at the same time, i think that someone who undergoes extreme harship, even death to avoid colaborating is doing a good thing. maybe there is some space between "non condemnable" and "good" that a person can occupy, though not particularly comfortable. i think there is an imperative to persue the good, and settling for the "not bad" is often just as bad as supporting it. I duno its tough, probably why humanity hasnt "solved" ethics yet
in reply to odd_megan

Shiri Bailem
Shiri Bailem
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@odd_megan Pikuach Nefesh is the one law of Judaism with no exceptions, it is in fact the number one exception to all other laws.

"Life is the highest commandment" - All Jewish law cedes to the health and wellbeing of people.

If leaving Twitter would cause someone harm, then they are permitted to stay on Twitter but this does not relieve them of seeking alternatives to eventually reach a point where they can leave Twitter with little to no harm.

@odd_megan
in reply to Shiri Bailem

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •
from my cursory reading (very cursory, obs happy to defer to folks with more knowlage), it has to spesifically be preservation of an identifyable life, not just the avoidance of harm?
in reply to Shiri Bailem

odd_megan
odd_megan
• •

also, Im sure the jewish community, out of all communities, has spent a lot of time thinking about fash, ones ethical obligations regarding protecting ones self and others from them, but im not familiar with it.

after thinking about it. i think this is a conversation i should back out of. I dont have sufficient knowlage expertice. its a tough question, and others have spent a lot more time on the issue than i have. sorry

in reply to odd_megan

Shiri Bailem
Shiri Bailem
•

@odd_megan It's okay, I get where you're coming from and it can be good to voice these discussions as it creates a space of learning, especially when you're willing to learn.

To clarify on Pikuach Nefesh what details are a little less obvious on a quick read:
* specific identifiable life is counter to arguments that some vague uncertain person might be harmed. Ie. it doesn't rule that you have to child proof a house that never expects to have children in it. It also doesn't cover vague potential life ("But if you do this you'd become infertile or could pass on genetic abnormalities to your future children!")
* life threatening isn't generally considered as "will cause death" but rather is interpreted typically as "lasting harm". For instance, losing a leg won't necessarily kill me... but if I would lose a leg following a commandment then Pikuach Nefesh kicks in. If giving food/money/shelter to those in need would risk my health and well being, then I can say no, but if it wouldn't then I must say yes.

In the topic of things like support networks in fascist spaces: if it would just be unpleasant to leave, then you're required to leave. But if it would cause you lasting harm to leave, then you are permitted to stay.

Also of note: Judaism still praises martyrs, we just discourage it. It's a great good (notably not a Mitzvah) to die to uphold justice and your faith... the real Mitzvah is surviving another day.

@odd_megan
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