The solution to “autobesity” is NOT to change car parking spaces. It’s to fix the root of the problem and get rid of these over-sized, wasteful, dangerous and unnecessary vehicles.
“More than 150 car models are now too big to fit in average car parking spaces, according to analysis conducted by Which?.”
More than 150 car models too big for regular UK parking spaces
Fears over safety as analysis by Which? shows ‘autobesity’ epidemic means cars getting wider and longerSian Norris (The Guardian)
Charlie Stross
in reply to Helen Czerski • • •Quixoticgeek
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Shiri Bailem likes this.
Charlie Stross
in reply to Quixoticgeek • • •Quixoticgeek
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Charlie Stross
in reply to Quixoticgeek • • •Shiri Bailem
in reply to Charlie Stross • •Darrel Plant
in reply to Shiri Bailem • • •@cstross @shiri
I love the term “Chelsea tractors”.
In our older residential section of Portland, lots of streets are only 20 feet (6 meters) wide — with parking on both sides — so we’re constantly confronted in our smart car by people in SUVs and crossovers barreling down the center of the street because they don’t want to slow down.
Charlie Stross
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •Darrel Plant
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •It’s upthread. That’s where I saw the “Chelsea tractors” quote!
ZOP
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •feld likes this.
Charlie Stross
in reply to ZOP • • •Flittermouse 🔞🐩 :ablobbass: :ablobdrum: :ablobkeyboard: likes this.
Darrel Plant
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@shiri @zop @cstross
The crash safety standards excuse is bogus anyway. Even if you take it seriously, it completely ignores the damage the vehicle causes to pedestrians, other mobile humans, property, and other vehicles. But at its heart, it’s an excuse for manufacturers to build ever-larger vehicles because they’re more profitable.
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ZOP
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •that’s false for US and EU designed vehicles. There is as almost always room for improvement however pedestrian safety standards drive a huge amount of the overall car design, since about the 80s here in the US. The EU has a bunch of pedestrian safety standards as well, most of which are currently considered well ahead of the US regs, with the NHTSA in talks now to adopt refs similar the EU NCAP. We definitely have not kept pace here in the US and the statistics show it.
Unfortunately a lot of the big gas guzzlers get exempted here because they’re not in the “light passenger” category.
Darrel Plant
in reply to ZOP • • •The idea that vehicles need to be larger for better pedestrian safety is bogus.
ZOP
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •Darrel Plant
in reply to ZOP • • •@cstross @shiri @zop
The smart has a higher seating position than most sedans.
In any case, whatever regulations are in place in the US aren’t doing a very good job protecting pedestrians, because the number of pedestrian fatalities has been increasing since about 2010, and it’s spiked since 2020.
ZOP
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •ZOP
in reply to ZOP • • •Charlie Stross
in reply to ZOP • • •Shiri Bailem likes this.
Shiri Bailem
in reply to Charlie Stross • •ZOP
in reply to Shiri Bailem • • •Shiri Bailem likes this.
Darrel Plant
in reply to ZOP • • •@zop @shiri @cstross
And there’s the SUV in the room: the automakers would “revolt” if safety rules impacted their bottom lines. Would consumers revolt? Maybe. But they’d more likely grumble and do what motorcycle riders do: some extra testing to get a certification they needed to drive the type of vehicle they want.
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ZOP
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •Darrel Plant
in reply to ZOP • • •@cstross @zop @shiri
Lane-splitting isn’t going to be made any “safer” by wider vehicles taking up lanes that are the same width.
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ZOP
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •ZOP
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •Darrel Plant
in reply to ZOP • • •I don’t think driver licensing (and there’d be no need for a full CDL) is the answer to getting monstrosities off the road anyway. Something more like an annual fee based on the square of the weight of the vehicle.
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ZOP
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •most US states already do vehicle registration based on a tax value and weight category, some include age (older gets cheaper even if value doesn’t decrease). And for commercial vehicles universally it’s almost entirely based on the capacity. F/ex Same tandem semi truck can be registered for 60-120k lbs (without a tag axle though might not be able to legally haul 120k). A 350/3500 truck can be registered similarly - but if your registration exceeds 24k or 25k you’re going to have to have commercial vehicle insurance.
It’s probably a lot less of a live wire politically to enact it that way in a lot of states, almost certainly could pass in blue states, but the red states would deny it on principal of taxation is bad. (Hence why MT Governor gave back income and property tax rather than using the surplus to fix anything like the underfunded DMV or school lunch programs, or on and on)
ZOP
in reply to ZOP • • •ZOP
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Shiri Bailem likes this.
ZOP
in reply to ZOP • • •Shiri Bailem likes this.
Bill Seitz
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •The Loophole That Made Cars in America So Big
Michael Thomas (Distilled)Darrel Plant
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Just saw this…
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tudor
in reply to ZOP • • •@zop @shiri @darrelplant @cstross
Here (hungary) those trucks are commercial vehicles, having different (and cheaper) taxes, but using them means a lot of paperwork.
If that soccermom has to fill out a form for every trip and has to have a fence separating the back seats from the front she will choose another vehicle.
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ZOP
in reply to tudor • • •Shiri Bailem likes this.
Shiri Bailem
in reply to ZOP • •tudor
in reply to Shiri Bailem • • •@shiri @cstross @darrelplant @zop
Oh no doubts that the people of the US are the makers of their fate. My only concern that there are people there I care about.
ZOP
in reply to ZOP • • •Michael Gemar
in reply to ZOP • • •ZOP
in reply to Michael Gemar • • •Darrel Plant
in reply to Michael Gemar • • •@shiri @zop @cstross @michaelgemar
“The War on Cars” interview with former Jalopnik Editor Bob Sorokanich
Sarah: And there is the reality that when the hood is five or six feet tall, it doesn't matter if there's a crumple zone on it because you're getting crushed under the wheels of that vehicle after being knocked down.
https://thewaroncars.org/2023/08/01/extra-inside-automotive-journalism-with-bob-sorokanich/
EXTRA: Inside Automotive Journalism with Bob Sorokanich
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Peaceful Assembly Robot
in reply to ZOP • • •@zop @shiri @darrelplant @cstross
The fact that "light passenger" doesn't include full size pickup trucks or SUVs *is* the problem!
It's cheaper for vendors to build because regulations are laxer, but because they are bigger, they look more valuable to the buyer, hence driving the entire industry away from reasonable sized, efficient, vehicles.
Jam them into the same rules framework and it'll only take s few years to work itself out! (But vehicle industry and shills will moan.)
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ZOP
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •it’s not just that though. There are a lot of factors driving vehicle size up. One odd obviously that people want more comfort. But there’s factors outside of that too… Look at the ‘84 model year for F series (using this because I own one) - A/C was technically an option but it was garbage. No room for the dash ducting. No ABS, no air bags, no emissions systems. Many options like cruise control have gotten way smaller (like in 84 it was a vacuum or electric service system that pulled the throttle) but we’ve added so many things as standard. The A pillars, dash, and other areas on newer cars, like the steering wheel are all taking up much larger volumes for air bags, HVAC, speakers, and other safety systems (like camera systems for stopped vehicle/pedestrian detection, adaptive cruise).
The new emissions systems are huge, even in gasoline vehicles. They take up GOBS of space. The Vapor recovery canister on a Honda CRZ looks like a whole extra fuel tank, and that’s a little compact hatchback. In diesels the DPF and NAC catalysts take up even more space. The noise level of older vehicles is also generally unacceptable to current buyers, and current laws, so there’s a large amount of space given up to mufflers and intake baffling systems. And yes decreasing engine displacement can reduce the needs fit those things.
EU market is obviously vastly different for highway/freeway speeds than US given the larger distances involved (100km/h is probably acceptable lower limit though, general is interstate system is largely ~120km/h now - 75MPH), and 30km/h (~19MPH) in city isn’t going to fly with the driving public in cities in the US.
Unfortunately because of the size of the US market, the costs associated with developing the tooling for cars, it’s driving other markets too.
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Darrel Plant
in reply to ZOP • • •I’ve got AC in my smart. No cruise control, but there were aftermarket addons, they’re electronic and don’t take up that much room. I live in Oregon, so it complies with US emissions. Not sure why we’re talking about EU standards.
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ZOP
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •Charlie Stross
in reply to ZOP • • •ZOP likes this.
Charlie Stross
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •ZOP likes this.
Darrel Plant
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Sorry, I was just responding to the US regs portion of that statement. I drive an EU -made car!
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Landa :graz:
in reply to ZOP • • •Charlie Stross
in reply to Landa :graz: • • •ZOP likes this.
Landa :graz:
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Dan Thornton
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@cstross
I totally agree with urban speed limits, although 30kmh = 18mph, which is a bit of a problem when it's at the top end of 1st gear and below 2nd gear in manual cars...
On motorways/autbahns, speed isn't the big cause of incidents - it's other factors (tailgaiting being the big one)
But definitely in favour of smaller, lighter cars - not only are they better environmentally, they're also more fun to drive.
Charlie Stross
in reply to Dan Thornton • • •Tubemeister
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@cstross @badgergravling There's a lot more to the concept of "fun" than "hooning around" as you appear to be thinking.
I'm sure the tourism industry would have some thoughts about not driving for "fun"...
Charlie Stross
in reply to Tubemeister • • •Tubemeister
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@cstross Did the XR2 end up on its roof?![;-) ;-)](https://foggyminds.com/images/smiley-wink.gif)
Granted the hooning is the most visible part, and as usual what's visible immediately translates into "most people" in the public discourse.
Which gets a bit tedious if you're part of the group being targeted but do actually know how not to be an idiot and behave yourself in public while having fun.
(It's even worse for motorcycles, more often than not that's treated as a spherical group of uniform density, no nuance needed just ban 'em all.)
Charlie Stross
in reply to Tubemeister • • •Tubemeister
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Dan Thornton
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@cstross
That's cobblers, for one simple reason.
Pubs.
Drinking isn't productive, it's fun. So why don't we ban it? Alcohol also kills...
You can have fun at the speed limit in an open top convertible, for example.
Or on a nice winding road in the countryside with decent scenery.
Also - race tracks are being closed due to NImbys, and track days are limited for the same reason.
(Written as a pedestrian, cyclist, motorcyclist and motorist with advanced training on bikes and in cars)
Charlie Stross
in reply to Dan Thornton • • •Dan Thornton
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@cstross
You appear to have ignored the fact it's perfectly fun to cruise around in a car, within the speed limit, away from unvinvolved third parties, as it undermines purely basing road safety on calculations of kinetic energy.
I own a classic motorcycle. It can't reach the national speed limit. But it's small, and fun to pootle around on.
And the biggest risk when riding it is inattentive drivers who have safely switched off at the speed limit or below...
ZOP
in reply to Dan Thornton • • •Charlie Stross
in reply to ZOP • • •Peaceful Assembly Robot
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@cstross @zop @darrelplant @shiri
I'd love to see the numbers on "lifetime lost due to slow freeway travel speeds" versus "lifetime lost due to freeway accidents."
It might be the numbers actually say 15 kmph in cities and 150 kmph on freeways -- I have no good intuition for the magnitudes!
Peaceful Assembly Robot
in reply to Peaceful Assembly Robot • • •@cstross @zop @darrelplant @shiri
I looked up the numbers:
1.37 deaths per 100 million miles traveled.
One death might average 500,000 hours of lifetime.
Doing the math, if we assume 100 kmph current average speed, we'd come out ahead up to about 130 kmph. (US statistics, hand wavey, assuming squared accident/speed relation)
Darrel Plant
in reply to ZOP • • •@cstross @zop @shiri
I’m 3 inches taller than the average USian man and (regrettably) 250 pounds (113 kilos). Positively Trumpian is girth. I fit my smart car very comfortably. We’ve had it for 15 years. In that time, I’ve been hit by 2 hit-and-run drivers: once in the back end (while I was stopped at a light); the other t-boned me on the passenger side after running a red. We’ve hit a deer. Still driving.
jojoeffe
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •Darrel Plant
Unknown parent • • •@shiri @PJ_Evans @cstross @zop
Yeah, I’m sure the extra $3 is a deterrent to buying a 5-ton vehicle instead of a 3-ton vehicle.
https://www.txdmv.gov/sites/default/files/body-files/FeeChart_1C.pdf
Charlie Stross
in reply to Darrel Plant • • •Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of "for four wheels the first 600kg is free; thereafter, you pay an extra $10,000/year per ton, unless you can prove it's a commercial goods vehicle or emergency service vehicle (ambulance/fire engine or similar)".
Want to drive a Ford F250 or a Hummer or an Escallade? That'll be $20-30K a year in tax.
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Darrel Plant
in reply to Charlie Stross • • •@PJ_Evans @cstross @shiri @zop
That’s sort of along the lines of my square of weight idea…
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